Bee genetics

[apisbees]

The queen breeders are selecting and producing queens from their best hives. Ask what traits they are selecting for and if it fits in with what you like in your hives, buy a few and evaluate them and if you like one or 2 add them to your breading program. The thing with queens is that even produced from the same hive you can see a difference in the colones that they are in. Not all queens are made equal.
As important as selecting for traits you like. also removing hives that have traits that you do not like. Colony that shows any sign of disease. hives that are aggressive. possibly hives that swarm.

[omnimirage]

Great information thanks, gives me a better idea how to structure my email to them.

I have maybe 10 hives that I can split from. There's 6 people selling Ligurians in Australia. Four are from New South Wales, I read a report that showed more north east coast of New South Wales has a lot of Africanised bees present, so if the breeders from NSW are near that region I don't think I'll buy off them. I figure I'd need at least two queens from a breeder to get any remotely fair understanding of the quality of stock they are selling.

What do you think about buying just straight up pure breed Ligurians from Kangaroo Island? Would they likely be a better investment than mainland, more hybrid Ligurians? I'm under the impression that due to heterosis, the first generation of hybrids are likely to be stronger, healthier bees than their pure breed types, and that queens bought from Kangaroo Island are more inclined to be purebreeds, so the queen that I buy from them won't have any of this hybrid vigor, but the next generation will, whereas Ligurians bought from the mainland will likely be hybrids, so they will have this added hybrid vigor quality about them, but then the next queen, the next generation will be of lesser quality.

[apisbees]

I would worry less about lines and more about the quality's that are in the queens, In BC in the 1980's the government developed a bee breading stock and race was not a consideration it was traits and production that was the factor in selecting which queens were selected for mating from. and if anything showed any sins of disease it was out.
Here is a link to a podcast interview from John Gates. He ran the BC stock improvement program and taught most in BC how to raise queens and be more self sufficient when it comes to bees. I owe a lot of what I know about bees to him. He lives 20 minutes down the road from me.
http://blogs.oregonstate.edu/pollinationpodcast/?tag=john-gates

[Jen]

Amazing thread here! Think i'll read it twice

[LazyBkpr]

"I would worry less about lines and more about the quality's"

    Well said!  That million dollar race horse can have the best lines in the world, but if he can't run he isn't worth the time spent on his papers. Talk to those breeders about the queens they are offering and find out what qualities they are working for the most.

[tecumseh]

and Apisbee snip..
' If you find capped cells then the bees have started cells from some older larva and any that are capped should be removed to get rid of these inferior cells that will emerge before the better cells that were raised from young larva. You want a queen from 12 hr old larva not 24+  hr old larva. So if the cells are capped sooner than they should be, then the bee used older larva.'

a points here that run a bit contrary to Apisbees comments.... by the book it takes 16 days for a queen to go from egg to emerged virgin. The first thing you should understand is like all thing biological this is a mean ESTIMATION with variation of about one day + and - around that date.  Consequently a properly created virgin may emerge a day earlier or a day later than the book given estimation.  Second point in regards to my own experience in rearing queens here the day and night time temperature will effect the time from cell formation to emerged virgin.  We tend to pay little attention to night time temperature but cool night will tend to make emergence a bit late and warm night a bit early.

[Dave2]

I've been watching some youtube videos from a university in Ontario with a Buckfast breeding program on an isolated island
They suggest the gentleness trait is carried by the drones
Seems to me you want to suppress the drones in aggressive colonies and promote drones in desirable colonies

[Honey Hive Farms]

We like changing up our stock every two years to help keep them stronger.
Like the Cordovan Italians a lot.

[Bakersdozen]

I think it's a good time to revisit this thread.  It's a great subject.
Over the past few months I have heard various knowledgeable speakers talk honey bee genetics.  I heard Krispn Given, Purdue University, Queen breeder and researcher, a few days ago.  He suggests that if you are going to have a breeding program, the beekeeper needs at least 100 hives.  His process is not a one time achievement.  Breeding for varroa biters has to be ongoing as each generation crosses with drones that are not from varroa biting stock.

[RAST]

Or invest in some expensive equipment and learn AI.

[.30WCF]

As a hobbiests, I don’t try to manipulate the genetics. We live in an area where many, if not most, of the swarms caught have some degree of Africanized genetics. I’ve learned this the hard way. Now, if I catch a swarm I order a queen from somebody I trust, and replace the original queen as soon as possible.

I’ve had swarms start of really gentle. Then become very aggressive, once they’ve established themselves in the nuc.

It could be timing. I don’t know what’s going I. Where you are vs where I am.
I found myself in a similar situation last year/ this year. My bees had gotten awful. I mean awful. Most people would have gasses them I suppose. The instant I pulled the cover, it was a flat out attack to my veil that smelled like a banana spit topped with banana Now and Laters. It was a constant hail of bees bouncing off my jacket. This all started last year with some sate splits. They got nastier the later it got towards fall. Again this spring they were flying at me if you cracked the lid a 1/2”. If the cover was off, it was a swarm about me. Just stinging my gloves, stinging my veil, and my sleeves. 2 out of 10 or so hives were like that, but it would aggravate others with all the bananas you could smell and taste in the air.
Once it hit warm enough, right before the honey flow I gave this queens a good look at my hive tool. It was smashing.
A while later, they raised their own queens from the mean “bee’s” eggs, and I can now, a few brood cycles in, go about a normal inspection. I may even get back to veil-less in a few more weeks.

To your other point, I hear folks say that’s warms are acclimated to an area. I never saw a swarm of bees until I started keeping bees, but that’s not for not looking or being outdoors and aware. I catch my bees, and I catch my neighbors bees, what I don’t catch is wild bees that didn’t come from someone else’s hive. That swarm is probably your queen, or someone else’s last year’’s queen that swarmed.

[.30WCF]

I don’t have African bees in my area, so my above post may be irrelevant, but I’ve had luck just letting them make their own queen.

[RAST]

Discussion at our bee meeting last night. The instructor/moderator is a commercial queen breeder/pollinator from just north of Tampa Fl. The state does DNA testing on his breeder bees. They found a 95% AHB in one hive, he says that it is a hive that can be worked without a jacket most days and remains that way. He no longer breeds out of it to be on the safe side, but the general consensus was the state testing was flawed or records mixed up.