3 to 1 ratio drone over worker

[tbonekel]

In my inspection this morning, one hive had a whole lot more drone brood than worker brood. Some frames had nothing but drone brood. These frames are foundationless. Should I be concerned?

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[pistolpete]

How old is the queen.  She may have run out of viable sperm. 

[Woody Roberts]

That's a pretty high ratio. The way I can tell is to mark a frame with eggs in worker cells. If their not right the bee police will clean them out. If I come back in 3 days and the cells are empty or have fresh eggs then I know I have a drone layer.

I know some people do but I've never had a hive supersede a drone layer when I give them a frame of good eggs.
I have to smack her first.

[tbonekel]

How old is the queen.  She may have run out of viable sperm.

I thought of that. I don't know how old she is. This was a swarm that I caught last summer. That's the biggest problem with swarms I guess, not knowing how old the queen is.

[LazyBkpr]

   I would have to ask.. is there worker brood?
   Are the drone cells separated from the worker brood? Or are they intermixed?

   This is a piece of plastic foundation I tried to make them get rid of..
   


   I scraped it the first time. I scraped and melted the wax off it the second time... and they STILL insisted this was their drone frame.. so I let them do as they pleased with it, and we both got along fine after that..   The Cell size UNDER that drone comb is for worker cells, but they did what they wanted with it anyhow..

    So a lot depends on if you have normal worker comb in there as well.

[Jen]

Very Interesting! but this novice hasn't any idea what that means. One of these days... I'll be able to answer a question for You 

[LazyBkpr]

In my experience the bees WANT a certain amount of drones / drone comb. In hives that have predetermined cell size, they will make their drone comb wherever they can, usually in the burr comb they put between frames etc.. But sometimes there is no way to "make" them build what you want. In Tbone's case I am trying to determine if the drones he is seeing are because they are planning to raise a queen or if he has a queen that is beginning to fail.
   In reading what he typed I am thinking the worst, but still hoping for the best.

[tbonekel]

There are 3 frames that are full of brood. I can't remember which of them have foundation or not. The frame that is in the middle is 95% worker brood and it's a pretty solid pattern, pretty much like I would expect in a regular situation. It is sandwiched by two frames that are 90-95% drone. So I guess there is some consistency to it.  I honestly didn't really look for eggs, but if I go back in to this hive in about 3 days, what should I look for or see?

This hive is the product of a combine that I did about 2 months ago. The bottom deep is the original hive. The top is the queenless hive that I put on at that time using newspaper. I don't know if that has anything to do with it or not.

[Woody Roberts]

Are these three frames of brood all that's in the hive?

[tbonekel]

Are these three frames of brood all that's in the hive?

No, there are other frames that are some brood, pollen and honey. Most of that brood is worker.

[Woody Roberts]

I'd say your good to go. A strong hive likes to raise lots of drones early. They usually cut back after the first batch or so.

[riverbee]

drone rearing is at it's height in spring t bone, and i would be looking for swarm preps.  if you are seeing solid patterns of worker brood on frames, i wouldn't be concerned about the drones or the age of a queen or failing queen unless you start seeing nothing but drone laying, helter skelter patterns, drone brood mixed in with worker brood, and/or spotty brood patterns.  and also, like lazy said, they want a certain amount of drone comb and the bees tend to sandwich drones wherever as well. 

"That's the biggest problem with swarms I guess, not knowing how old the queen is.

as long as you see good solid patterns from your queen, i would not be concerned about her age. also, primary swarm's typically leave with the original queen, and those queens are sometimes superceded.

EDIT AND ADD:
woody replied before i could, but what woody said, indication of a strong hive.  i would be looking for swarm preparations.

[iddee]

Tbone, you got a lot of good info above, so I'll just add this. Look at ALL the capped brood in both boxes. Approx. 1/5 of it should be drone this time of year. Don't look at one frame or one box, but the whole hive. Do you have 4 times as much worker brood as drone. If so, all is well.

[tbonekel]

Tbone, you got a lot of good info above, so I'll just add this. Look at ALL the capped brood in both boxes. Approx. 1/5 of it should be drone this time of year. Don't look at one frame or one box, but the whole hive. Do you have 4 times as much worker brood as drone. If so, all is well.

Well, see that's the real kicker because all of my hives have nothing in the top box as far as brood is concerned. I didn't go into winter with very strong colonies at all. That being said, 1 particular hive looks very close to being wall to wall in the bottom and I expect them to start moving up. I have never experienced this and hope it happens pretty soon, I'm starting to get nervous about swarming and weather I'm managing correctly. I know that sometimes there is nothing I can do about swarming, but I would still like to be proactive if I can. Since these were all either swarms or cutouts, they don't seem to really want to take to foundation and I'm concerned a little about that. Today was the second time that I have inserted a foundationless frame in the middle of the brood and they really do draw it out fast. But on the ends where the foundation is, they are not hardly touching it.

[iddee]

Put a foundation frame in the middle and a foundationless frame on the outside. You will see it is the middle they are drawing, not the frame type.

[LazyBkpr]

   

   Offer your kids Spinach and Ice cream and see which they eat first.   

   Iddee is right though. My Mentor called it Primary frames..  those closest to the center usually get drawn out first, all things being equal.. 
    Starting a new hive with no foundation I typically drop plastic frames in at about three places to help them go the right direction..  Normally the foundation-less is 1/2 to 3/4 drawn out before they ever touch the plastic.. for me it works good, because then I can pull the few plastic frames and replace with foundation-less and have very little loss of work for the bees.
   When i have foundation-less frames I intend to extract that are not attached to the sides, they get rotated to the center and the bees usually fill in those edges.
   As a side note.. I have PF 120 small cell all plastic frames and some rite cell large cell foundation with wooden frames, they usually choose the empty frames first. In the few instances they did draw the plastic I just left it in there for them and rotated it out at a much later date. Wax foundation is a toss up which they will choose first.

   Back on topic..   It SOUNDS to me like your fine. You can't tell looking at an egg if it is fertile or not. Just watch the capped brood at each inspection to insure there is still plenty of worker brood.

[tbonekel]

Will do. It's already hard not to look in these things everyday. I'm pretty much doing a weekly inspection but I may check this hive again in a few days. I need to really get some good notes so I will know what changes. Thanks for all your help, everyone!

[riverbee]

"1 particular hive looks very close to being wall to wall in the bottom and I expect them to start moving up. I have never experienced this and hope it happens pretty soon, I'm starting to get nervous about swarming".

tbone what is your hive setup, and what is in the top box?  if the brood rearing area in the lower box is congested, wall to wall.....is something preventing them from expanding the brood nest upwards?  what we expect them to do doesn't always happen.  not sure i am saying this correctly, but congestion doesn't always encompass the entire space bees occupy, just the brood rearing area, it may only be in one box, for some reason preventing expansion upwards?
hope this makes sense?

with that said, considering what iddee said regarding the ratio of workers and drones, if they don't move up (why?) and you start seeing queen cups being constructed i would be thinking dividing or some other method of swarm prevention.

[Woody Roberts]

If they don't want to move up, and often they don't. I take two or three frames out of the broodnest and put them in the center of the top box. They'll move right up.

I don't leave a big gap in the lower nest, rather two or three smaller ones. Meaning I drop an empty in where I moved one up.
These open spots in the nest is one way I control swarming

[tbonekel]

If they don't want to move up, and often they don't. I take two or three frames out of the broodnest and put them in the center of the top box. They'll move right up.

I don't leave a big gap in the lower nest, rather two or three smaller ones. Meaning I drop an empty in where I moved one up.
These open spots in the nest is one way I control swarming

That makes sense to me and if if they haven't started moving up pretty soon I may do that to encourage them. I have not seen any signs of queen cups yet, so I think I'm still okay.