Author Topic: First grafts ever done. It's a rush... (Read 20647 times)

Yankee11 · « **on:** April 02, 2014, 05:53:42 pm »

Almost capped.

Now a question. This box is crammed packed with bees. What are the chances of this hive finishing these cells wanting to swarm.
It is really crowded. I have the queen trapped in the bottom deep since last Saturday. Debating weather or not to leave the capped qcells in this hive or move them to my incubator. Could capping these queen cells make them want to swarm.

Jen · « **Reply #1 on:** April 02, 2014, 06:10:39 pm »

Well this is out of my league but great pics! Love Them

iddee · « **Reply #2 on:** April 02, 2014, 07:31:50 pm »

You can leave them after they are capped. Just not past day 14. they may emerge one day early on day 15, and the first one out will destroy the others.

Yankee11 · « **Reply #3 on:** April 02, 2014, 08:11:21 pm »

Thanks,

Should I look in bottom box and make sure I don't see anything going on down there as far as swarm cell? I am really concerned with the crowding in this double deep.

It wouldnt hurt to look in bottom box would it? if full and nowhere for queen to lay I could pull some brood and give her some empty comb.

iddee · « **Reply #4 on:** April 02, 2014, 08:13:03 pm »

You could also have wild cells in the upper box if you had open brood there when you grafted. I would check every frame in the hive.

Perry · « **Reply #5 on:** April 02, 2014, 08:29:12 pm »

Yankee11 · « **Reply #6 on:** April 02, 2014, 09:51:43 pm »

lol, yea, I had some eggs on one of the frames I put in the cell starter and now there is about 6 qcells on that frame. Ooop's.

I am gonna stick that frame in the queen castle and let one hatch and get mated. Plastic foundation so i cant harvest cells. I will
remove this frame before they start hatching.

I will say this. there is a big difference between the cells they pulled on that frame(emergency cells) and these queen cells from the grafts.

Looks to me like the graft cells will produce a much larger queen.

LazyBkpr · « **Reply #7 on:** April 02, 2014, 10:15:12 pm »

What Iddee said!! glad you checked!!

theres a little calander of sorts on my queens page if that helps. Day 13 you can move the cells, not before. Day thirteen from when the egg was laid, not when you grafted it. If your not CERTAIN you got one day old larvae, best be moving cells on day 13 or 14 instead of day 15.

According to David Tarpy's research at NCSU the larger queens are the best queens! larger queens mate with more drones, and the queens that mated with the most drones gave off the strongest pheromone and were treated with more respect/care by the bees... Larger queens have more storage ability in their spermatheca, etc etc... Interesting research if you get a chance to read it!

iddee · « **Reply #8 on:** April 02, 2014, 10:42:00 pm »

I would move the frame with wild cells as soon as the first one is capped. You never know what age larva they started with.

PS. The first thread above, a sticky, is a queen calendar, too.

Yankee11 · « **Reply #9 on:** April 02, 2014, 10:50:43 pm »

I'll put it the queen castle this weekend.

Lazy, I'll check it out. I'm hooked on this now. I am gonna start another frame of grafts this weekend. See if I can get better than 50%.

This sure will make making nucs so much easier, and cheaper. I have 8 queens on order. 200 bucks. And now 8 queens basically for free.

I was not sure I could raise my own and I have some nucs sold. So now I have plenty of queens.

Who knows, if I get good at it, maybe I can sell some queens of my own. I sure seem to have to really good strong bees.

LazyBkpr · « **Reply #10 on:** April 02, 2014, 11:00:01 pm »

Indeed! I wish I had the steadiness to graft.. I usually squish them instead.. :'( Fortunately I can cell punch despite having hands older than dirt.

Exciting isnt it!!!

tecumseh · « **Reply #11 on:** April 03, 2014, 06:57:48 am »

as iddee at least suggest you do need to check back for wild cells and most especially any in the top part of the box with the queen cells < I am GUESSING HERE that you are using some variation of a Cloake board to start cells... generally in such a system the starter and the finishing hive are one and the same. Given this set up you do need to be constantly vigilant in regards to wild cells that will also get generated in the process.

size of queen cells can be somewhat confounding. I typically cull grafted cells that are either too small or too long. As far as I know there is no relationship between the size of the cell itself and the eventual queen that that will evolve from that cell. after mating and properly laying for a short period of time there is a distinct and positive relationship between a queen's weight in grams and her maximum egg laying capacity.... this relationship is not so easy to establish to the size of queen cell from which she emerged.

ps... you can make queen cells much larger than the one's in the picture by simply priming the cells with royal jelly before you graft. once again there seem to be not relationship between this larger queen cell and the success of the queen that will issue from that cell.

Yankee11 · « **Reply #12 on:** April 03, 2014, 08:30:29 am »

I used a cell starter nuc, then moved them to the finisher colony.

I have roller cages to put around the cells. Could I not put the roller cages on the cells around day 14 and let them hatch out inside the hive. Then remove them and place in the nucs? This way I wouldn't be startinh nucs and have the queens not hatch. Wouldn't the bees keep the new queens fed until I removed and put in nucs.

I did not prime the cups. I will this next batch. How do you prime the cups with royal jelly.

LazyBkpr · « **Reply #13 on:** April 03, 2014, 09:20:00 am »

You could introduce Virgin queens to your colonies most assuredly..
However, as I understand it, giving them the capped cell is a LOT easier as far as acceptance is concerned

tecumseh · « **Reply #14 on:** April 03, 2014, 07:37:06 pm »

how you count days can also lead to some confusion. I count from the time of graft and the maximum for this is 10 days. A cool thing to watch is about a day prior to the cells hatching the worker will peel off the wax on the very tip of the queen cell. If I had cages I would put this on about day 9 or 10 (again counting from day of graft).

ps... I mention this confusion in that the good Doctor at the bee lab counts from the day the egg is laid and this has produced some confusion in my own minds as to what needs to happens a certain number of days in the future.

Yankee11 · « **Reply #15 on:** April 03, 2014, 08:22:41 pm »

Ok, the queen cells are all capped. I checked all frames and the only other q cells are on that frame that I put in cell starter by accident It has 4 capped cells on it.

But this is crazy. There are so many bees in this double deep I really think I may be triggering them to swarm with these queen cells in there. I added a super yesterday and even the super is full of bees. They are crowding the entrance and landing board. Its the only hive doing this. Now that the queen cells are capped I'm afraid they are gonna leave. I checked the bottom deep and saw the queen but no queen cups in bottom deep.

I think I need to pull her tomorrow with some brood and a bunch of bees. Then I can leave one of the grafts to hatch out to replace her.

Could finishing these cells in a crowded hive trigger them to swarm?

LazyBkpr · « **Reply #16 on:** April 03, 2014, 08:47:38 pm »

If you left more than one cell in with them it would certainly be a trigger to swarm, provided the first to emerge didnt kill the other before she could emerge etc...
You already have the right idea though. Pull a couple nuc's, give them some room, leave them one cell.
I use a strong nuc to make a few queens. A lot of bees in that little nuc. Leaving them one cell they have yet to swarm, but I also make sure to have a second nuc box ready to put on top when the new queen is ready to start laying just to give them room. If your bees are related to Jen's bees they may decide to swarm anyhow.......

Yankee11 · « **Reply #17 on:** April 03, 2014, 09:18:13 pm »

What about this.

Since the queen is trapped in the bottom deep and the 8 grafts are in the top deep. What If I just removed the bottom deep and sit it on a new bottom board and sit a empty deep on top of her.

Then set the top deep with the 8 grafts on a bottom board. Leave the 8 grafts in there until day 14 and remove 7 and leave them 1.

This would make 2 really strong hives.

LazyBkpr · « **Reply #18 on:** April 04, 2014, 08:01:51 am »

That IS basically a strong split. Just remember the foragers will return to the original location. FEED the other hive. M.Bush, Dee Lusby and others recomend facing the entrances of those two "new" hives toward each other forcing the foragers to choose. Then reversing the locations if one of them appears to be stronger than the other after a week or two. I haven't done the entrance facing each other thing, but hope to give it a try this summer.

Yankee11 · « **Reply #19 on:** April 04, 2014, 08:55:49 am »

I have to start a new bee yard tomorrow.

What if I do the strong split today. Then move the hive with the queen to the new bee yard in the morning. Leave the deep with the 8 capped grafts, and 1 frame with the 3 queen cells, here at my house bee yard.

Then next week pull the 8 qcells and make nucs.

Leave this deep the frame with the 3 qcells on it and they will be requeened and strong.

I would leave the hive with the queen in the original spot today so she gets all the foragers to take with her to new bee yard.

Man, this makes my brain hurt...