Cell size on foundationless

[Woody Roberts]

Scott posed a question on another thread I thought we might get more input here.
I have never measured a cell but it appears to me that bees draw three basic cell sizes. Worker, drone and storage.

If left to their own devices my bees seem to draw out supers with an intermediate size. I should say sizes because their all different.

As much as possible I have my deep frames drawn near the center of the brood nest. Then I rotate them out or up. Once the brood hatches they'll become honey frames. Sometimes I can catch one that hasn't been layed in yet.

I've given bees drawn comb before in the broodnest and the queen Never would lay in it. I assumed it was the wrong size.

Can anybody enlighten us here?

[LazyBkpr]

Yep..  Woody mentioned that honey comb is not the same siuzed cells as worker brood comb..
   I have seen this mentioned before, but usually disregarded it.
   Several renowned beekeepers use the older honey comb as brood comb. I read that and thought it was a good frugal idea, and have done so myself. Just wondering if I am shooting myself in the foot here with larger cell size?

[barry42001]

well what I do is I use a marking system so that I know extracting super from the brood chambers, not that I would ever interchange the two, but good for clear and concise note taking, with regards to what is drawn out what the queen is laying eggs in, how much of the  honey comb is drawn out in the extracting Supers. I understand this is different than what you all were originally talking about, but because I use foundation and the type of foundation that I use, I only know the bulk of what I have, will be worker cells, it will be very little repurposing of the foundation.

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[Ray]

Micheal Bush's website: www.bushfarms.com  has some interesting information about cells size.

[blueblood]

I experimented with leaving the queen excluders off on a few hives last year.  The queen didn't seem to mind about the drawn comb in the medium supers.  She laid like a champ in them.  Side note, I use excluders exclusively.  That was a dang mess.

[LazyBkpr]

I experimented with leaving the queen excluders off on a few hives last year.  The queen didn't seem to mind about the drawn comb in the medium supers.  She laid like a champ in them.  Side note, I use excluders exclusively.  That was a dang mess.

   LOL!!  Yes, I have had queens decide that the supers were the best place to lay, in which case I also use an excluder. Not often though.. I attribute that to my mad skill and overpowering charisma!!!!   Or luck..   

[tecumseh]

interesting LazyBkpr.... although I will assume here that your latter comment is in jest it does seem certain 'known authority' (which I also use here in jest) seem to rely on the same set of personal qualifications.

and finally to Woody....if you read the early history of the making of what we know as foundation there was a lot of experimenting with various sized cells and some of the earliest attempts where tossed for exactly the reason you posted > 'I've given bees drawn comb before in the broodnest and the queen Never would lay in it.' < and a ps... for the small cell TRUE BELIEVERS practical application evidently means nothing.

[Woody Roberts]

I drug out some drawn comb today. I measured with a caliper and I'm not sure about my conversion.
This is a medium honey super but one of the frames had been used for drone brood.

Yellow plastic foundation. Ten cells measured 1.848 = .46 centimeter

Foundationless honey frame. Ten cells = 2.203 = .55 centimeter

Foundationless drone comb.   Ten cells = 2.568 = .64 centimeter

The plastic was not small cell.

[LazyBkpr]

interesting LazyBkpr.... although I will assume here that your latter comment is in jest it does seem certain 'known authority' (which I also use here in jest) seem to rely on the same set of personal qualifications.

   Not sure what you mean Tec.. I'm slow some times so you have to humor me..
   Michael Palmer and Larry Connor are two that I have heard say that they used last years supers to start hives in this year.
   I am also wondering if the cell size the bees are accustomed to make a difference in what they make for their honey storage.   I'll do some looking and see what I can find, and will also be measuring my own next time I go in.

[Ray]

My guess would be:
The honey bee builds comb down and out. The outer rings are reserved for honey storage and the next inner ring is used for drone. Building a different size comb anywhere else would then require the bees to rework it. One of the Geek Catalogs warn that, leaving the 7-11 comb in the hive could cause the bees to rework it to drone comb.
There I just argues myself around in a circle where is the CANCEL button?

[LazyBkpr]

There I just argues myself around in a circle where is the CANCEL button?

  Now THAT is talent!!   

[Zweefer]

Sorry to revive an old thread, but was going to post on just this (thanks search feature!) 
I was reading the bees left to their own devices will draw out 1/2 or more comb as drone comb (it is larger and more quickly built).   I immediately thought of Lazy as I know he does foundationless. 
Have you noticed this? I'm assuming you have no problems as you have been foundationless for some time now?  Does anyone know for sure if where you place the new empty frame (center or edges) makes a difference?

[riverbee]

zweefer, never apologize for reviving an old thread!  good question! i can't answer your question as  i don't do foundationless except in my comb honey frames. no strips, no foundation, nothing. the bees readily build larger cells, (drone size).  this is a great question for scott, or anyone else who uses foundationless frames.

[Woody Roberts]

Zweefer, I didn't start out foundationless or plan on going that way. It just kinda happened. Here is my experience for what it's worth.

Small hives will build almost all worker sized cells. When I add a second box they will draw more drone comb.
There will be a half moon of worker comb up the center with drone comb over the top and on the ends.
The frames next to the entrance will have the worker comb to the back and the drone comb near the entrance.

Third box tends to be drawn in haphazard sized cells. Mostly large,

I get most of my comb drawn in the brood nest and rotate it up and out but as a hive gets stronger it will build more drone comb.

Just because they have drone comb doesn't mean they have to raise drones. Once they have their quota these cells are used for honey storage.

How much comb is drawn in drone sized cells is very dependent on the size and strength of the colony.

As to the question of where to put the empty frame. Foundation certainly needs to be at the edge of the nest but foundationless doesn't matter as far as I can tell.
Hope this helps.

[Zweefer]

It does.  I am thinking of the future.   I need to replace a lot if junk frames my nucs came with, and already have a few foundationless frames in the deeps. (Didn't have enough on hand when they were needed) Thinking what my best option would be going forward.   I'd like to go foundationless (1-2 frames a year) until all the junk was rotated out, but if it messed with the brood, wouldn't be worth it.   Thanks!

[Lburou]

.....  I'd like to go foundationless (1-2 frames a year) until all the junk was rotated out, but if it messed with the brood, wouldn't be worth it.   Thanks!

Rotating junk frames is a luxury we hobby beekeepers can afford, I recommend it. During a honey flow in a fairly mature hive, you can remove a frame and replace it with another and have a good chance your bees will draw the comb, post haste.  This year it took five to seven days to draw a frame out almost completely in the spring honey flow.  (Early spring feeding can produce combs, but not quite as fast.)

Doesn't matter whether its foundationless or some kind of foundation, a honey flow provides bees with resources to build honey comb.  They will draw comb without foundation so fast it surprises you -when the time, as determined by the bees, is right. Their second choice will be all wax foundation and, after that, they will draw plastic foundation if the time and conditions are right.  Just put that empty frame between two drawn and uniform combs on either side.

When you remove a brood frame and replace it with a new frame, move it to the super above the brood nest and bees will hatch out just fine.  Later, you can remove that frame from the hive entirely and put it in next year's swarm trap after you put some BT az. on the cells to kill wax moth larva. 

It takes my bees more than the first season to fasten the foundationless comb to the sides and bottom of the frame, so be careful as you inspect those frames until they are attached well enough to keep the comb from warping and falling on your shoes.  HTH   

Having said all those things above, I feel compelled to say that my preference is a good plastic foundation like ritecell in a wooden frame.  Once you have extracted honey from your other foundation options, you'll understand why. 

P.S. To the OP: In my view, too much is made nowadays about cell size.  The majority of cells in my foundationless frames are the same size as those on ritecell.  Bees will rework cell size to suit themselves, even on plastic foundation.

[LazyBkpr]

It takes my bees more than the first season to fasten the foundationless comb to the sides and bottom of the frame, so be careful as you inspect those frames until they are attached well enough to keep the comb from warping and falling on your shoes.  HTH   

Having said all those things above, I feel compelled to say that my preference is a good plastic foundation like ritecell in a wooden frame.  Once you have extracted honey from your other foundation options, you'll understand why. 

P.S. To the OP: In my view, too much is made nowadays about cell size.  The majority of cells in my foundationless frames are the same size as those on ritecell.  Bees will rework cell size to suit themselves, even on plastic foundation.

   Wow..  LB Said a whole lot in his post...

   First, let me say I agree with Woody. Good post..   THe bees will build Drone cell when they think they need drones.  In a nuc your keeping well managed they will draw worker comb.. In a new hive that is just starting to build up they will draw worker comb..  Once they reach a certain hive size specifically decided upon by the bees they will start making Drone comb..  Typically I have TWO full frames of drone comb, sometimes as much as another half of a frame as well..   I am fine with them having and using drone comb to that point. If they make MORE I cut it out or swap in a drawn frame of worker comb and do not usually have to fight them very much over it.

   LB has some good points, but I have different experiences of a couple of those points.  I will start with extracting..   Using a radial extractor my foundation-less frames extract VERY nicely.  So long as top and bottom OR top and sides of the frame are attached I do not have any problem extracting.
   FRESH drawn comb that is not well attached is easier to blow out. Swap it with a frame from lower in the hive. Wax that is a little older and stiffer will extract splendidly, so long as you use common sense.
   I will however agree that plastic is easier. Drop it in and turn the extractor up to WOW..  With wax or Foundation less you need to start it slower and work the speed up.

   As far as how long it takes for bees to attach the comb.. entirely depends on the bees.  I have bees starting frames that run immediately to the bottom bar and are VERY well attached before the frame is even 1/4 of the way completed.   Other bees seem reluctant to draw ANY side or bottom..   Making sure bee space is correct, between frames, as well as between the side walls and frames is important.  If you have a frame slid over too far against a wall the bees will be more reluctant to draw the sides of the frame.  Like LB said.. you MUST use care when inspecting those frames that are not well attached yet.  They will seem fine, you tilt it up to look, and in the blink of an eye it will be laying on your boot.  Yes I have.. and the bees take a considerable amount of insult as very personal "when" (not if) this happens.

   I will not disagree with anyone who uses plastic or wax foundation. Never!  Then why don't I use it?  Because I would have well over $2000.00  Invested in JUST foundation if I used it. Seems to me that any extra trouble I have in making sure the foundation is straight, as well as using care extracting it is VERY MUCH worth saving $2000.00...    I use foundation when I have it..  Wax, or plastic, but I don't BUY it specifically to use it..   When I get it, It is because I found a deal on some beekeeping goodies and the foundation was part of the deal.  So I am quite happy to use it..   

   I have spent some time measuring cells..   I have to say, that there is a LOT of misunderstanding going on out there.
   If you drop a foundation-less frame in your hive, your bees will  "NOT" build small cell..  In fact they are likely to build Drone comb first.  Regression takes a little time with foundation-less, not as much time with small cell foundation.
   Like LB said, the BEES will decide what to build. You might be AMAZED if you look at what the bees build compared to the foundation under it.
   My foundation-less frames have small cell, and SMALLER than small cell... cells.. But the bees do not BUILD a frame of all one sized cell.  It may be 4.7mm in the very center and 5.4mm along the outside edges..    I could provide you with PROOF that bees build smaller than 4.9mm if I took a picture with the ruler in a specific location on a frame, and using the same frame I could PROVE to you that bees on natural cell build large cell foundation if I took the picture in the right place.     To me it is not so much the cell size, as it is letting the bees build what THEY think they need.  It is a bonus to the foundation-less approach, not a means of controlling mites.. but, if it helps?  I am all for that too!

    As stated, the primary reason I use foundation-less is cost. If you do not have 40 to 50 hives the cost of a few sheets of foundation may not bother you at all.. SO just give them a frame or two of foundation less and let them build their drone cells!  They will back fill those with honey for winter.

[Lburou]

Sounds like its time to graduate to a radial extractor....I'm looking for one that takes deeps now.  Thanks for the info on radial extractors and plastic-less foundation. 

[Woody Roberts]

I have a homemade two frame extractor that I lined the face with chicken wire. I have no issues extracting white comb that's only attached at the top. The comb swings out against the chicken wire and stops right there.
I do sling a little from one side and then flip. And I go a little slow at first.

I do have a few plastic foundation frames and they are a breeze to extract.

I'd be the first to admit when I first started trying to extract foundationless I blew out several. There's a pretty good learning curve. At least there was for me.