Author Topic: 4 Yr Old Queens  (Read 8773 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline LazyBkpr

  • Global Moderator
  • Gold Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 6842
  • Thanked: 205 times
  • Gender: Male
  • www.outyard.net
    • The Outyard
  • Location: Richland Iowa
4 Yr Old Queens
« on: April 11, 2014, 09:09:01 pm »

   I have two queens that are going into their fourth year. I am not excited about the brood pattern of either of them, but they ARE still laying.
   This is the pattern from one of them;



   And this is the pattern from the other.. I also see that she decided to make an appearance in this picture;



   I will split both of them into Nuc's next month, and let them get established. At wich point I will be raising a few of my own queens to replace them with as well as do a few summer splits/nuc's to overwinter.
Drinking RUM before noon makes you a PIRATE not an alcoholic!

*Sponsor*

Offline Jen

  • Platinum Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10175
  • Thanked: 240 times
  • Gender: Female
  • Location: Upper California
Re: 4 Yr Old Queens
« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2014, 10:29:04 pm »
Mkay... so I understand the first frame, looks spotty, gunshot. But the second frame, I'm not sure what your not happy about except that it's not in a arch?? I love tests like this!
There Is Peace In The Queendom

Offline Perry

  • Global Moderator
  • Gold Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 7382
  • Thanked: 390 times
  • Gender: Male
    • Brandt's Bees
  • Location: Annapolis Valley, Nova Scotia
Re: 4 Yr Old Queens
« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2014, 10:37:25 pm »
I am always leery of replacing a queen when a brood pattern isn't "perfect".
There could be several reasons for a pattern like that. If you were to drop a nice "clean" frame of comb in there and still ended up with a spotty pattern, then maybe I would remove her. Queens only lay where they can find spots, and a frame plugging up with nectar or pollen could explain some patterns.
"It is not the man who has too little, but the man who craves more, that is poor."      
Forum Supporter

Offline Jen

  • Platinum Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10175
  • Thanked: 240 times
  • Gender: Female
  • Location: Upper California
Re: 4 Yr Old Queens
« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2014, 10:53:59 pm »
Scott, do you sell nucs? and do you sell nucs in a medium box?
There Is Peace In The Queendom

Offline riverbee

  • Gold Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 8924
  • Thanked: 410 times
  • Gender: Female
  • ***Forum Sponsor***
  • Location: El Paso Twp, Wisconsin
Re: 4 Yr Old Queens
« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2014, 11:01:10 pm »
thanks for the pix scott, especially of the 2nd with your queen. love queen pix. 
i will wade in and ask, how do you know these are 4 yr old queens, the queen in your 2nd pic is not marked.....?

i keep wild things in a box..........™
if you obey the rules, you miss all the fun.....katherine hepburn
Forum Sponsor

Offline pistolpete

  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 786
  • Thanked: 20 times
  • Gender: Male
  • Location: Chilliwack, British Columbia
Re: 4 Yr Old Queens
« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2014, 11:08:44 pm »
So am I totally off my rocker replacing my queens every year?   I'm using young queens as a form of swarm prevention.    When the hive gets strong enough, I take out the old queen and a 4 frame Nuc.  Then re-queen with a purchased queen.   The sale of the nuc with a 1 year old proven queen offsets the $25 for a new queen.    If I had more than 3 hives I'd raise my own queens, but I have no time or space for more and my main management goal is no swarms and maximum honey.
My advice: worth price charged :)

Offline LazyBkpr

  • Global Moderator
  • Gold Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 6842
  • Thanked: 205 times
  • Gender: Male
  • www.outyard.net
    • The Outyard
  • Location: Richland Iowa
Re: 4 Yr Old Queens
« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2014, 11:23:19 pm »
   Spotty brood could be from hygienic behavior, chalk brood and a few other things.. these frames were empty a little over a week ago with a single small patch of brood the size of a baseball. The expansion shows a lot of missed cells with a mite count of 0 for an either roll 5 days ago, so I suspect age is starting to creep in. However, they will have their chance when the new queens arrive to show that old doesn't mean they are failing.
   I would really like to see how far I can take these two queens, but also have to consider that now is not the time. I need to grow a lot and fast for the next two years. If they expand the nuc's well.....   I may try to take them another winter in the nuc's. They still have a long hard summer ahead of them.

   Mrs River;
   I split them into nuc's every year. I may let a well established colony slip two or three weeks without an inspection, but the nuc's, and then the hives they get moved into get inspected every weekend. Often just a quick look to make sure they are not superceding.
   Can I gurantee they are the original queens?  As of last spring when I split them they still had the remnants of  paint on them, so I knew they were the original queens. They still have the discolored spot where the paint was, and I know they did not swarm...   That is not to say both were not superseded once they were hived. So, no, I cannot guarantee they are the 4 year old queens, but I am reasonably confident.

   Jen, I am not selling nuc's this year, we will see what I have survive the winter.  I have two double nuc's built. 4 frames per box on them, with a common divider in the lower box and a single bottom board. The style that will take a normal tele cover.
    I have two double nuc's built that use separate boxes as well. They also use a common bottom board, but standard 5 frame nuc boxes sit on that bottom board and they take separate/standard nuc lids.
 And I have about fifteen standard 5 frame nuc boxes ready, I will winter them as doubles and wrap them in pairs. We will see what winters best. It is my intention to sell nuc's next year if I have any survive the winter. It is also my intention to raise queens this year to practice. I have only fooled around previously. Come mid June I will be working to perfect my methods in order to raise the best queens I can for the nuc's I sell. iuf nothing else... I can have several small bottles of alcohol on hand to drop unused queens into and sell swarm lure :P


   Not at all PistolPete. The young queens will be the greatest prevention you have toward preventing swarming. I know several beeks who do the exact same thing.
   My situation is such that I can do an inspection on any hive every day all day if there is need. Most people do not have that luxury, so taking preventative measures like you speak of are very worthwhile.
Drinking RUM before noon makes you a PIRATE not an alcoholic!

*Sponsor*

Offline Jen

  • Platinum Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10175
  • Thanked: 240 times
  • Gender: Female
  • Location: Upper California
Re: 4 Yr Old Queens
« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2014, 11:28:09 pm »
Hey Pete~ So last spring my one and only hive had a one year old queen, it swarmed three times. This spring my one and only hive had a one year old queen and it swarmed/mating-flight 5 times.

Maybe I just have swarmy bees. But I'm inclined to use a queen as long as I can.

Come on Pete! Poor Queens  :(
There Is Peace In The Queendom

Offline pistolpete

  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 786
  • Thanked: 20 times
  • Gender: Male
  • Location: Chilliwack, British Columbia
Re: 4 Yr Old Queens
« Reply #8 on: April 12, 2014, 11:40:55 am »
I don't pinch my 1 year old queens, just sell them with the Nuc.
My advice: worth price charged :)

Offline Jen

  • Platinum Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10175
  • Thanked: 240 times
  • Gender: Female
  • Location: Upper California
Re: 4 Yr Old Queens
« Reply #9 on: April 12, 2014, 12:14:53 pm »
:)  That makes me happy  :)
There Is Peace In The Queendom

Offline Woody Roberts

  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 387
  • Thanked: 2 times
  • Gender: Male
  • Location: Ash Grove MO.
Re: 4 Yr Old Queens
« Reply #10 on: April 12, 2014, 07:58:14 pm »
I don't mark my queens or try to keep track of when exactly they were born. With no more hives that I have at the time and as much as I pester them I have a pretty good idea how old each one is.

There's always the chance they got superseded without my knowledge. It's extremely unlikely though.

All my queens were born last summer except two. One will be four this spring and one will be four this fall.
They are my strongest and my weakest hives.
The older is the stronger with the youngest the weaker.
I robbed a lot of brood from her last year and she went into winter weak. She catching up fast now though.
I never pinch my old queens I just have always let them supersede her. I figure they know when it's time.

I suspect both will be gone this year though. As soon as its time I want some daughters from the old one. The youngest is the mother / grandmother of all the rest of my queens.

Offline Jen

  • Platinum Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10175
  • Thanked: 240 times
  • Gender: Female
  • Location: Upper California
Re: 4 Yr Old Queens
« Reply #11 on: April 12, 2014, 08:40:40 pm »
I like this story Woody! ;) 8)
There Is Peace In The Queendom

Offline Woody Roberts

  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 387
  • Thanked: 2 times
  • Gender: Male
  • Location: Ash Grove MO.
Re: 4 Yr Old Queens
« Reply #12 on: April 12, 2014, 09:15:54 pm »
I have come to realize that I'm going to have to mark my hives. I'm getting too many to keep track of from memory. ( which ain't all that great anyway )

I like Perry's method of marking the lid. I move boxes around too much.

Offline tecumseh

  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 856
  • Thanked: 71 times
  • Location: College Station, Tx.
Re: 4 Yr Old Queens
« Reply #13 on: April 12, 2014, 09:48:46 pm »
If  you do not treat......

a breeding clue >  the early studies of varroa infestation in hives of bees was pretty conclusive that the maximum life of the small population of hives studied was 2 years.... and thus the name varroa destructor.   yet if we 'after the fact' now look at larger populations of hives we see where very small number of hives survive beyond this two year time line.  if untreated hive that live beyond 2 years are displaying positive signs of varroa resistance and are primary genetic resource in a queen rearing/breeding program.  For a smaller beekeeping concern two hives would be quite a remarkable advantage in that you are not dependent on one genetic line.

at that age of a queen I would expect a somewhat broken brood patter and even in the best of circumstance such a queen will not last beyond 4 or 5 years.  time is fleeting and the opportunity to take advantage of this kind of gift will not last long.   

Offline LazyBkpr

  • Global Moderator
  • Gold Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 6842
  • Thanked: 205 times
  • Gender: Male
  • www.outyard.net
    • The Outyard
  • Location: Richland Iowa
Re: 4 Yr Old Queens
« Reply #14 on: April 12, 2014, 10:05:34 pm »

at that age of a queen I would expect a somewhat broken brood patter and even in the best of circumstance such a queen will not last beyond 4 or 5 years.  time is fleeting and the opportunity to take advantage of this kind of gift will not last long.

    They get to start a new nuc next month and then retire to the old queens nursing home when the new queen cells are ready.

   time is fleeting. If I get to live to 70, then I have 20 more springs, 20 more winters etc..  It doesn't seem like a big number, but I will take all I can get.
Drinking RUM before noon makes you a PIRATE not an alcoholic!

*Sponsor*

Offline Jen

  • Platinum Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10175
  • Thanked: 240 times
  • Gender: Female
  • Location: Upper California
Re: 4 Yr Old Queens
« Reply #15 on: April 12, 2014, 10:15:34 pm »
Gees Scott! That's a sobering thought on your 50th birthday   ;) 8)

But I get it, I reeally do!  ;)
There Is Peace In The Queendom

Offline LazyBkpr

  • Global Moderator
  • Gold Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 6842
  • Thanked: 205 times
  • Gender: Male
  • www.outyard.net
    • The Outyard
  • Location: Richland Iowa
Re: 4 Yr Old Queens
« Reply #16 on: April 18, 2014, 09:44:29 pm »
I'm actually impressed these two old queens are doing as well as they are.




   Seriously considering leaving them in nuc's for the summer.
   5 days after installing a few empty frames thay have this one well started. Also not bad considering there was no flow.




Drinking RUM before noon makes you a PIRATE not an alcoholic!

*Sponsor*

Offline lazy shooter

  • Gold Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1449
  • Thanked: 64 times
  • Gender: Male
  • Location: Brownwood, Texas
Re: 4 Yr Old Queens
« Reply #17 on: April 20, 2014, 08:54:59 am »
A couple of thoughts:

The first is that I had a queen that just quit laying this spring.  The brood dwindled away and the bee population followed.  I could see no evidence of mites or other disease so I let them die out.  For weeks, I kept thinking they would supersede the queen, but they never did.  It was a small hive, and I did not want to combine it with other hives as I was concerned that there was a disease problem that I was not seeing.  The story line to me is, bees do not always supersede the queen.

The second is that I have two queens that are going into their third year, and they have not been treated with anything other than sugar syrup.  Both of these hives are robust and healthy.  I plan on splitting these hives in the next week or so as we have a mesquite flow coming soon.  From Tec's above post, I would assume these queens have some mite resistant traits.  I don't want to get into queen rearing, but I may trade these queens to an old pal that is into queen rearing.  I hate to see good genetics wasted.

Offline Woody Roberts

  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 387
  • Thanked: 2 times
  • Gender: Male
  • Location: Ash Grove MO.
Re: 4 Yr Old Queens
« Reply #18 on: April 20, 2014, 09:23:20 am »
It seems to me sometimes a hive decides to die and they won't take NO for an answer. My problem when I let them die was usually the hive beetles would ruin the comb at the end.
As long as I can't see disease problems I shake them out and salvage their comb/equipment.

Offline G3farms

  • Bee Wrangler
  • Global Moderator
  • Gold Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 1724
  • Thanked: 37 times
  • Gender: Male
  • Location: Concord, TN
Re: 4 Yr Old Queens
« Reply #19 on: April 20, 2014, 09:28:21 am »
If she got injured and by the time they decided to supercede her, it could have been too late, no brood of the correct age.

Just letting them die out is kind of a waste of resources. Beetles and moths will destroy what you and the bees have worked so hard to accomplish.

Try your hand at raising some queens, nothing to loose and much to gain!
Bees are bees and do as they please!

.... --- -   -... . . ...   .-- .. .-.. .-..   .... .- ...- .   -.-- --- ..-   ... - . .--. .--. .. -. --.   .- -. -..   ..-. . - -.-. .... .. -. --.   .-.. .. -.- .   -.-- --- ..- .-.   .... . .- -..   .. ...   --- -.   ..-. .. .-. .   .- -. -..   -.-- --- ..- .-.   .- ... ...   .. ...   -.-. .- - -.-. .... .. -. --.