MP On package bees..

[LazyBkpr]

Interesting and short video...   It amazes me when I find a vid like this that mirrors my own thinking so closely...    I now have ten packages, ten nuc's and five VSH queens arriving in one to three weeks.   The Package bees are specifically to TEST the ADAMANT argument that ANY BEES do fine ANYWHERE by multiple people on other forums..
   I disagree completely.. This winter saw the loss of the LAST of my southern package bees.. while my northern bred and feral bees "ALL" survived the very nasty winter we just had...
   In arguments I have had some VERY VERY ticked off people about my claims that southern bees SUCK!!!  so I am going to put this to rest once and for all..   Package bees ordered from a different source than the ones I lost..   Local Nuc's, and intermediate queens.. queens from not so far south as the packages that are "claimed" to be VSH Gold queens from Glenn breeder queens...
   Its going to be a REALLY interesting year!!!!!

   

   I hope I get the chance to meet Michael Palmer one day..

[blueblood]

Think the same way.  Good video.  Thanks!

[tecumseh]

I don't see a video link... my computer evidently is having a slow electron day and my veil seems to have failed at the same time.... are these items related???  are they correlated? < perhaps this should suggest the methodology* problem behind your little experiment.

I would suggest LazyBkpr that ANY BEES and ANYWHERE is a large overstatement.   There are of course historically location in Europe where bees did not exist and likely cannot exist without the presence of man.  In these places you choices of bees is limited and even then you are relying on cultural (as in the word agriculture) practice to obtain any survival rate at all.  Secondly ANY BEE that looks similar to one that originated in a similar location in Europe should survive if you play all your cards correctly and mother nature doesn't bitch slap you for intruding into HER space.  Quite obvious to me if you follow along with evolutionary thinking the darker bee has an advantage in the colder climates and the more yellow the bee the more sunshine it requires..... for example a Cordovan Italian which originates in southern Italy and France would not be the kind of bee that could survive in Northern Europe.

There are (at least to me who has knocked out his fair share of packages in his day) problems with package bees and most particularly in these days when pollination folks are dumping a lot of bees in southern Georgia that have come out of the almonds.  I am WILDLY GUESSING here..... that source** and distance to the consumer are the two variable that will most greatly effect winter survival rate.  From a more rational point of view Glenn Apiary has now been totally out of business for about 2 years and I would suspect any chance of one of their VSH queens still being alive is about as close to zero as one can get.

*the only way you could establish any real information here is a blind test with perhaps 6 packages from a half dozen suppliers from various location across the southern US and California

**I suspect your own test would likely speak to the veracity and ethical code of the folks providing the packages more than anything else.   And quite obvious to me this is a characteristic than can be in short supply almost anywhere you go. 


Finally after 4 minutes the link to your video finally shows.... which I knew what is with that.... perhaps it is time for Mac here to visit the TUBE GOD.

[tbonekel]

Well, I'm going to leave this discussion to you guys who have more experience in this than I. But I will say that it makes sense to me that bees bred in a certain area probably are designed for that area and should be capable of surviving within that area and climate. But Lazy, let's not get too crazy about southern bees. They might "suck" just in the north. I purchased a queen last year from south central Texas (around Tecumseh) and she's great! I'm hoping that is the last queen I purchase. From now on, it is my intent that any new queen that I get will be raised by my bees and any new bees I get will be either from splits or swarms. I will have no idea whatsoever of the origination of the queen of those bees, but at that point, I don't care. That may be off topic, but all this to say, I agree with you. 

[iddee]

Sounds like a good experiment, put to be accurate, you need to mix three or four of the local swarms, then shake out 3 lbs. colonies from them, add a locally mass produced queen, and ship them 500 miles away and back to your apiary, install them in hives, then compare them to your purchased packages.

[tefer2]

Michaels videos are always down to earth with no BS. added.
One day, I hope to have as much common bee sense as he does!
Thanks for posting Scott.

[LazyBkpr]

It's not about survival through the summer or surviving stress, I am more interested in wintering ability. I can and will equalize and get them all going well and make sure they are prepared for winter..  The losses that concern me are the ones where my bees die of starvation with 80 lbs of honey left above and beside them..   

   I was actually threatened when I said I didn't like southern bees, and naturally replied to the PM with my physical address..  Haven't had anyone show up yet. Others were less hostile and just argumentative..   queens coming in from Hawaii that are surviving perfectly fine in Canada etc..   I have not seen this with the southern bees I had because they all froze to death. One package survived to the next winter and died during that winter...   My only loss for that winter.
   I can't help but think there has to be SOME basis behind the anger and hostility, which is why I have ordered more packages/different supplier... I would hope, that by winter they will be well recovered from their stressful trip and be prepared to hunker down when winter arrives.  They will all be treated the same. Packages, nuc's and splits have all summer to prepare, each starting with some drawn comb. I will as I said equalize them, and treat them. Then we shall see what happens when the cold once again descends upon us.
   Of course.. If anyone has bees they want to ADD to this test I DO have extra equipment. 

   Any Bees ANYWHERE is an exact quote Tec. I'm telling you my statement was met with OUTRIGHT violence. I'm OK with that. If someone else starts it my wife isn't half as angry at me.  BUT, I do realize I am basing my perception of southern bees on ONE supplier and FOUR packages, so this year the test expands to more packages and a different supplier.

   I was also told that I was not wintering them correctly if they died from cold..
   Well, I wintered them how I was taught to winter bees. I wintered them the same as I wintered all the other bees. I dont intend to knit sweaters for the hives that have southern bees... 
   I have to wonder if the word "southern" isn't what is causing the problem?  Its not about north vs south, its about climate in those regions and genetics.

   Michael Palmer is a beekeeper and as such is also biased by his own experiences, just as we all are, but I have come to like the way he puts things together into words I am capable of understanding.
   

[iddee]

There's a way to balance the experiment. Order a few packages from MP and tell him to be sure and supply queens unrelated to the bees in the packages. That would be giving a nice balance to northern and southern bees.

I just don't think making a split and keeping the queen with related bees in the north, without shipping a long distance, and comparing them to shipped in southern bees is a fair comparison.

[LazyBkpr]

So you think the stress of shipping will affect them into fall? 

   It's a bit late to order packages, so I will have to stick with what I have going for now, but will attempt to get packages from French Hill for next spring.

  Perhaps just queens ordered from the two extremes put into splits from my bees?

[iddee]

I like the "just queens" idea. That would give all test hives
1. Unrelated queens
2. Equal time to adjust and build.
3. Low stress on support bees.
4. All related bees going into winter.

[LazyBkpr]

OK, I'll see what I can do.

[blueblood]

There are (at least to me who has knocked out his fair share of packages in his day) problems with package bees and most particularly in these days when pollination folks are dumping a lot of bees in southern Georgia that have come out of the almonds.  I am WILDLY GUESSING here..... that source** and distance to the consumer are the two variable that will most greatly effect winter survival rate. 

I hadn't thought about the possibility of bees being dumped from Almond groves.  No wonder, those bees are wore out.

[robo]

Scott,

Not sure what you are trying to prove, or to whom.   It just seems like you are more emotional tied into a debate with people that have different beliefs.   You are not going to convince anyone with the limited, non-scientific experiments you are proposing.   I believe you have already convinced yourself that acclimatized bees are best for you.   Put your efforts into improving your methods and don't waste your time and money on a pissing match with others.  You will learn that no matter what you do, you will never be able to convince or prove to certain people anything different than what they believe.   Share your beliefs, experience and thoughts,   but don't take it personal if there are people that have different views.    MP is a great guy and I have had the pleasure of sitting down with him a few times over dinner and discussing beekeeping.   He and I have many similar thoughts and our climates are similar as well.   We don't agree on everything,  but that is OK,  I respect him very much.

Just because southern bees may not be best for you, it does not mean they suck.   Northern bees probably aren't the best for people down south.   You will gain much more respect from others if you respect those with different views, than trying to butt heads and change them.   This is the best thing you can learn from highly respected beekeepers like MP & MB.   


Rob...

[DonMcJr]

Solution: Graft Queens from your Survivor Stock in July and Pinch them Southern Queens! Then going into winter not one of them Southern Bees will be alive anymore!

All I know is my packages came from Georgia. I have had 4 Packages from there not make it through the winter and one that did. The bees were calm and I never got stung.

This year 2 Packages from California. So far they produced 2 Stings when Installing and I was just out there on my 4 wheeler to see if the were flying about and they were. Just sat on the Quad 30 yards away and was watching them and saw 3-4 Bees flying my way...I'm sure hoping there's Pollen that way and they weren't heading to poke me again cause if these bees are sting happy after 40 days I'm going to be Pinching Queens and qrafting from my overwintered stock for sure.

Lastly, Whomever threatened you over you saying you don't like southern bees must be a wacko! We don't like Africanized Bees and...ok nevermind

[LazyBkpr]

Not sure what you are trying to prove, or to whom.

The only person I am trying to convince otherwise is myself.. I really dont care what anyone else thinks. Their arguing often incites my own curiosity. In this case so many are so adamant that I am wrong that I set it aside, and then find someone like MP claiming much the same thing..  and it fires up all over again..

 I really want to know..   Just me.
   Emotionally tied..   not personally to the one side or the other any more than my own experiences have shown. The emotionally tied part is from being threatened.. I wont even go there.

 As Robo sated in a different way, I also believe this is not something scientific research will settle, EVEN with total uncontroversial proof.. There will always be those who KNOW otherwise.

  I do believe that there is a difference in adaptability and genetics..  however... I am willing to re consider if I find that my beliefs were solely based on the circumstance of the original purchase, rather than on overall wintering ability.
   Almost every study about honeybees ever done has those who argue vehemently about the method, the means or the time and location. I just want to satisfy me.  Ideas like Iddee posted help keep me honest with myself.

   Don..  that is actually a good idea, and Is the route I should take, but it will have to wait a year because I really do want to see the differences.
   Yes, whoever threatened me was a little off their rocker..  the problem with a threat is it tends to make the recipient a little off their rocker too.. then there are two idiots...

[DonMcJr]

I hear ya... I don't like being threatened either... and don't take it well...

At the end MP says take a Frame of Emerging Bees from your overwintered hives at 2 weeks to give them nurse bees so they don't think something's wrong with the Queen and Supercede her...when in fact there just weren't any nurse bee's in the packages. Very good point and I too really like MP.

So it's been below 30 F ever since I installed my Packages. That's almost 3 days so I know today is not the day to remove the Queen cages...they will be mean for sure. Tomorrow rain...then they get out again Saturday and Sunday is also gonna be a nice day...So Sunday I may pull a frame of capped brood from each overwintered hive and give it to the new Packaged hives when I remove the Queen cage.

I want my Bee's to make it to and through this coming winter because my plan is to never have to buy bees again...so maybe proving that idiot wrong or right is really defeating your purpose...because I think you too are following a similar path as me on never buying bees again...

[LazyBkpr]

  My plan involves never NEEDING to buy bees, but I will probably import genetics every spring. Five or ten queens or so.. VSH, MN Hygienic, Waynes bees, survivors.. depending on what I find with my own bees as far as hygienic behavior and resistances to chalkbrood etc..   I want to bring in genetics and use the best of what I have/catch/cut out.   I plan on twenty more springs to do splits etc..  It isn't much time when it comes to bees, but with luck I will make a small dent in better bees, while making honey and selling some nuc's and queens, maybe making a little money and enjoying the heck out of the ride.

   You pulled the short straw with the weather didnt you Don. Starting in about two weeks I will be getting my packages, my nuc's AND my queens..  I really hope the weather is more cooperative.. If I was you I'd have an ulser already..  As long as there are enough bees to cover that brood you should be fine, and it will give them a serious moral boost.
   I have listened to a lot of beekeepers give talks, in person and on the net. Often I find ideas I like and ideas I don't. Like with Mr Bush. I find great wisdom in a lot of the things he does, but also find many of his methods impractical. With Mr Palmer, I don't often find myself thinking.. no, that won't work for me..  So I pay more attention. Perry, Iddee and a few others here fit into that category as well.

[DonMcJr]

Yes the weather SUCKS this year. I need to get in to remove my queen cages and it has been cold cold cold until today and now rain today... Tomorrow and Saturday are nice so I figured I will remove them Sunday so the have Saturday to fly around and get happy and maybe wont take out their aggression of being cooped up on ME!