Can a queen play possum, or I have a dead queen :(

[Jen]

First off I had no intention of looking for the newly hatched queen or eggs until next week. That said, this is the deep nuc that we started for hubs to take to his dad's property. We've known that the bottom board was upside down so that is why the follower board didn't fit properly. Nice warm day, so I gently lifted the hive up and over so hubby could turn the bottom board right side up. There she was :( motionless. I very gently nudged her to see if there was any reaction. Nothing, legs curled up no antenna moving. I took this as an okay to check the frames for supercedure cells. There was one that I could find.
 
It's been about 7-8 days since her cage was installed. I don't know how long she's been out and laying.



I did find eggs and larvae in assorted stages
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Queen cell


1. If purchased queen is dead and there is a supercedure cell... which queen laid the eggs?

2. What if the supercedure cell queen is from the genetics that I'm trying to get rid of?

[efmesch]

I'll go out on a limb  on this one----
The queen looks like she's recently dead (not shriveled or dried out)
The "supercedure cell" looks more like a queen cup, but the focus on that shot isn't sharp enough to be certain.
Check to see that there is an egg or larva in the queen cup/cell. 
Assuming that the young larvae in the regular brood cells pictured are from the dead purchased queen, any egg or young larva in the queen cup/cell could have been moved there by the bees after she died.
To answer your question as to which queen laid the egg, try to see if you can detect a distinct "age break" in the brood you have.  If, let's say you see eggs and young larvae  and cpped larvae but no older larvae, you should be able to assign the egg/larva in the queen cup/cell to the earlier queen or the recently died queen.
I wonder if what I wrote can be understood.   

[Jen]

Hi efmesch! Nice to hear from you 

Yes, It's completely understood what your trying to get across. After reading your instructions I went back out and looked at the cell, no egg in it. But I did find a new queen.

I don't know if you have followed my posts of my crazy swarmy bees. I replaced three queens to develop new genetics that won't swarm so much. Looks like these bees superceded my purchased queen and now have a new queen that they hatched.

My question is and I'm hoping: That this new queen is from an egg from the purchased/dead queen?

I don't think I have the developed scientific eye to decide what stages the larvae's are in to determine a break in time.

[efmesch]

......I don't think I have the developed scientific eye to decide what stages the larvae's are in to determine a break in time.

With your learning curve so rapid, it won't be long  before you'll be able to do it without any effort.
Consider the option of marking the queen so you can keep track of her.  I know that to the uninitiated it sounds scary, but, like all aspects of beekeeping, you learn by doing.

[Jen]

I would love to know how to mark my queens    Maybe I'll make that my next adventure. Thanks Efmesch! always enjoy your tutoring.

[Garden Hive]

I just had to laugh !
I'll go out on limb......Yep She's Dead ! Was my first thought.

I've only followed a little of the swarmy events. So I'm not up to speed with 'When this dead queen was installed'.
That would be the factor to consider. If this was just recent then the answer is no. Give us the time frames.

Hate to see a queen in that condition...unless she has it coming !
Tim

[Garden Hive]

Also some keeps.....think that marked queens have a higher tendency to get "Bumped Off" due to being defective.

[efmesch]

Just wondering.....That unexpected queen you found---was she a virgin or mated?
Could it be that you introduced your purchased queen into the hive when it had a ripe unobserved queen cell or a recently emerged virgin already present.  A mated queen (slow and heavy) is considered to be no match against a virgin queen (fast and furious) in the fight for life that is inevitable when they meet up. 
That could explain the "mysterious death" of your new queen, but would also answer your question about the mother of the eggs in the hive:
The brood in the cells is probably from the dead queen (depending on how long she was in the hive before her assassination) , but the living queen has her genetics from the queen you wanted to eliminate.
Tim is definitely right about the marked queens sometimes being seen as "defective" by the bees in the hive, but I don't think that applies when the marking has been done properly---not too much paint and no damage to the legs or wings in the marking process.
If it's not already too late, you could try some experimentation and raise another new queen from the eggs/young brood in the hive, assuming that they came from your now dead queen. But that's another story in itself. 

[Garden Hive]

Jen. I read the OP again. I was thinking this was a nuc made from a hive as a split or swarm prior.
If I read it right....You just introduced a new queen into this Nuc. I would be inclined to think that you missed a queen cell when you placed the queen cage into it. If that's the case then, efmesch is very correct that we assume a virgin queen emerged and came after your new queen.

If so then this new queen (alive) is from old genetics.
I have not read how long you had this nuc queenless prior to the intro of caged one. And if they had already had plans to supersede the previous queen you got rid of.
Guess I should just ask..... Has this marked (dead queen) been in the hive for more then 16 days?
Hope this makes a little sence.
Tim

[Jen]

I placed the new purchased queen in her cage into this nuc 7-8 days ago. I removed the empty cage 5 days later, I believe that was sunday. When I put the queen cage into the hive, the hive had been queenless for 24 hours... to my knowledge.

For both Efmesch and Garden ~ the reason for requeening is that the bees I have are merciless queen cell makers. The hive right next to the one we're dealing with now... I pulled out 29 supercedure cells about early last week. Those cells would have been made within the last 3 weeks or so. It's been swarm crazy around here.

[Garden Hive]

Well there you have your answer. Sorry to say, the queen that is there now is not from the marked queen.
I see you are having some very interesting events to deal with. I like what efmesch said, about that learning curve. You are getting a lot in a short period.

Those young ladies have struck again with producing another of their own.
The cell in the photo, looks to be just a cup.
If you wish to get rid of these and want the small benefit of the remaining bees. Pinch the new queen and combine them (newspaper) with another hive. Or just send them on their way with the other keep that was willing to take.
Hang in there.

[Bamabww]

Very interesting situation Jen. Sorry I'm not able to help but I really enjoyed the pictures. Good luck.

[Jen]

Garden-  ""Those young ladies have struck again with producing another of their own""

   WELL FOR CRYING OUT LOUD! There's 30 smackers down the drain!

Garden! I can't combine until I can get into the other two hives next Weds. The other two hives were also requeened last week! It would be too soon to add bees. And Frankly! I don't trust these bees anymore! by the time I could combine, this dead queen hive will have produced a couple of dozen queen cells again.

I'm backed against a wall with a lighter in my hand !! (I will not reveal the forum member that lives in Richland Iowa that said he would do that)   

[Lburou]

Jen, I hope you won't mind a few suggestions.  You still have the desired genetics in two of your other hives.  In a week or so, you can deal with this unwanted queen (put her in that alcohol jar), then, five or six days later, place a frame containing eggs from each of the other hives into that NUC and let them make a queen from the eggs laid by the new queens. 

That will mean destroying every queen cell made from the undesirable queen's eggs.  Double and triple check that all cells are destroyed.  Waiting 5 or 6 or 7 days before introducing new eggs so the queen cells are large enough that you won't miss them.  Brush the bees off if you must to be sure there are no queen cells remaining before your introduce the new frames from the other hive(s).  HTH   

[Jen]

I sure hope so Lborou, this idea definately on the table 

What does HTH mean? 

[Lburou]

HTH= Hope That Helps............

[Jen]

  thanks 

[apisbees]

Sorry to hear this Jen.
OK We need to determine whether the new purchase queen was released and laid before she saw killed by a virgin that emerged or was in the hive, or whether there was the virgin already in the hive and hadn't started to lay yet.
It would require 12 day for them to produce a queen from larva. So I doubt this happened so there was a missed queen cell or young new virgin or queen.
If new queen was released and started to lay in the hive you would find only eggs and very young larva and a gap in brood that is older in age with the last of the old brood being capped  or already capped. If you have brood of all ages I doubt that she laid and was killed upon her release by the queen already in the hive.
If you see signs of a brake in brood the young brood and bees could be from her and she was killed by an emerged virgin. and you could find another break in egg laying between when she was killed and the new queen starts laying.
If it was me i would let the queen head the colony for a cycle or 2 of brood. In a weeks time pull a frame of brood (Queen cell age larva) and start it in a nuc and shake bees off of open frames of brood from the dead queen hive and check in 4 days that you have queen cells on that frame from the other colony in the nuc.
Let it raise the queen and mate and once she is laying in the nuc then introduce her to the colony that has been dequeened. this way you can keep the colony building up while you raise a replacement queen.

[LazyBkpr]

LOL   Lighter in hand...
   For Crimineys sake.......
   LB has a grand idea, but as prolific as those bees build cells I think I would go the nuc method Apis mentions..  This way there is no guessing.. Your hive still builds up, and you still cut it back down to make a nuc from it.. so hopefully prevent it from swarm # 1109
   Pull the brood from one of your re queened hives, but shake bees from the hive you WANT to re - re - requeen

If it was me i would let the queen head the colony for a cycle or 2 of brood. In a weeks time pull a frame of brood (Queen cell age larva) and start it in a nuc and shake bees off of open frames of brood from the dead queen hive and check in 4 days that you have queen cells on that frame from the other colony in the nuc.
Let it raise the queen and mate and once she is laying in the nuc then introduce her to the colony that has been dequeened. this way you can keep the colony building up while you raise a replacement queen.

[Lburou]

Are we playing chess??   

You have the resources.....How are you going to manage them?  At what time? I like Apis' plan(s).  I hope you can see a break in the brood production in the dead queen's hive, they make a queen from eggs of the dead queen and they live happily ever after.  It is very likely that the dead queen was killed upon leaving the queen cage.

Only down side of leaving the bad queen in there for the 30 days necessary to make a new queen is the likelihood of another round of swarm cells while the good queen develops in the NUC.  From your chronicles of those swarmy bees Jen, it doesn't seem too big a leap to expect more swarms with little delay.  Maybe I'm missing something. 
 
If you can't control the swarm impulse of the bad queen's bees, you won't be any worse off than pinching the bad queen in ten days, killing the emergency cells that develop, and introducing a frame of eggs and brood from another hive and allowing the more populous hive to make the new queen for you.   JMO   HTH