Can a queen play possum, or I have a dead queen :(

[Jen]

Lborou - ""Are we playing chess??""
   
Good Gravy! Scrambled eggs in my head!

I've printed this off and will join heads with hubby to decifer.

He was born with the math/chess brain, I was born with the creative brain.

PS. I have the lighter, hubby now has the gas can ~ snark ~ kidding 

I am beginning to see this scenerio as the new Stephen King novel "Beekeeper Reaper"

[Jen]

Another equation: I should wait 10 days after I have removed the queen cages to get into the other two hives and check for eggs and brood. Should I do the Apis/Lborou ideas now? or should I wait until next Weds when the ten days are up?

Frankly, I'm nervous about what I'm going to see in the other two hives. These crazy bees can make a queen cell in one hour. 

[efmesch]

Frankly, I'm nervous about what I'm going to see in the other two hives. These crazy bees can make a queen cell in one hour. 

Have you had the same swarming phenomenon with the other hives too?  If so, I would start thinking that there is something about your hive management that stimulates raising all those unneeded, unwanted queens.  One such a swarming queen would be rare enough, to have them all following such a pattern would raise my questioning mind to think of alternative causes.

[Garden Hive]

Hey Jen, Wondering how well the Adult Beverage was last night.... I hope calming.

Now that the queens have been in the hives for 9 days, I would go through the hives with a complete inspection. Go in with a positive attitude and deliberate plan. Of course you and we are hoping that you find that your newly marked queens are just wandering around and laying as planned.

But yet prepared for the same results as in the nuc. I say this because if you find unplanned queen or queens then you want to handle that while there. Re-queening can be problematic, even though most of the time it is very easy and uneventful.

I get from past post that you are not looking to grow your apiary and you do not have to. I may be wrong. But if you find an additional queen or queens that are not to your plan or liking then remove them with a couple of frames of bees. These can be sold or traded or gifted to others. Even if this is a complete breakdown of a hive. I have a queen castle for this purpose. You can use any of the smaller nuc type boxes, even cardboard.

I say this as I sense that you would like to see them (bees, even swarmy bees) live on. But I also look at it as a hobby that I wish to receive some fruits of my labor.....
I pinch the queens and combine to the available woodenware that I have planned to use, in order to get a honey crop. That is just my management plan.

I wish you luck with your upcoming inspections.
Tim

[Lburou]

Another equation: I should wait 10 days after I have removed the queen cages to get into the other two hives and check for eggs and brood. Should I do the Apis/Lborou ideas now? or should I wait until next Weds when the ten days are up?

Apis recommended (if I understand correctly) time enough for one or two rounds of brood before making big changes.  I see wisdom in that recommendation.  You may be in a circumstance when doing nothing is the best thing for now.  Yes, check for eggs and assess the other two hives -watch for queen cells in dead queen's hive.  Then, reassess your resources and decide how & when you want to act.  I'm not trying to be at odds with Apis, he knows more about bees than I do.  Let's listen to his advice on timing, after you do the other inspections and we get your report.  JMO 

[Jen]

Ef- ""Have you had the same swarming phenomenon with the other hives too?  If so, I would start thinking that there is something about your hive management that stimulates raising all those unneeded, unwanted queens.  One such a swarming queen would be rare enough, to have them all following such a pattern would raise my questioning mind to think of alternative causes.""

Ef-    I have seriously considered this suggestion. Maybe it's ME! I think back and know this...  if a situation arises where I need advice, I go straight to this forum, gather info, and determine feels right for me which is usually the majority vote.

Last year my mother hive swarmed three times, then proceeded to build an incredible hive that came thru the winter beautifully. This year she started to swarm very early, then the captured and hived swarms started to swarm.

I'm not pacing in front of the hives, I'm not continually peeking and fussing.

I don't know, shrug, I just don't know 

[apisbees]

Go through the hive every week and remove queen cells queen cups.
Only need to do it for f weeks. But it will keep the bee population heading in the proper direction.

[Jen]

""Only need to do it for f weeks."
 
Apis- how many weeks is that? 

[apisbees]

Just a thought maybe genetically the quees are not producing the proper type amount of pheromones to keep the bees satisfied that their is a queen in the hive. If this is the case the new queen genetics and queen pheromones will address the swarming issue. But if it is the the genetic trait for the worker bees to build queen cells once you have confirmed that the 2 new queens are laying, I would be going through those hives also every week for the next month also. And just keep taking out any queen cell or cups.

[Jen]

Apis- ""Just a thought maybe genetically the quees are not producing the proper type amount of pheromones to keep the bees satisfied that their is a queen in the hive.""

Jen- Could this have anything to do with the fact that my first swarms came so early this year, like 3 months early? Probably weren't enough drones, and mature drones for that matter for proper mating. Seems to me that these queens are all immature as well.

Apis- ""If this is the case the new queen genetics and queen pheromones will address the swarming issue.""

Jen- Sure!! This was the point of requeening... but she died or they killed her. Apis... they are making new queens faster than I can get a new genetic queen hatched out of the cage ~ I'm thinking of qcell checks more like every three days?
 

[efmesch]

Jen---Last year my mother hive swarmed three times
Ef---Was that one prime and two afterswarms or was that three distinctly separated periods when one swarm left the hive? If it was one prime and two afters, that wouldn't be considered swarming three times.

When the hives started to move toward swarming (raising new queens):
1. Did the bees seem at all crowded (did they cover most of the frames in mid day (at the time when a laarge percentaage of the family is out at work)?
2. Did you give them frames for building?  When they are busy expanding, they have less time to plan for swarming.
3. Was there adequate ventilation---wide enough an entrance to keep the hives from running hot? (Had you cleaned away the accumuations of propolis around the inner sides of the entrance, the floor and the frames' tops and sides)?
4. Did the hives have enough room for expansion?
I assume you probably have the correct answer for these questions, but figure that they should be addressed anyway.

[Jen]

Ef---Was that one prime and two afterswarms or was that three distinctly separated periods when one swarm left the hive? If it was one prime and two afters, that wouldn't be considered swarming three times.

Let's start here 

I'm 'thinking' that is was one prime, then two afterswarms. But I wasn't savvy about what swarms were then, as I am more savvy about them now... but still befuddled about them. Last year all three swarms left in about three weeks... spaced about a week in between, or there abouts. I didn't document last year like I am documenting now.

[efmesch]

If there was a week between each swarm (lets count it as days 1,8 &15), they were all from the same queen, just that the family started raising the queens with a break.  Could be that there were a few queens that were eliminated also in royal battles or while still inside their cells (the second situation is more likely).  The queen cells that were too undeveloped didn't interest the emerged virgins, so they wern't eliminated before leaving the hive. 
As the details become clearer, my thinking tends to tell me that it's not the DNA of the queen that is faulty here.  If the queen that stayed behind was able to raise a strong enough family to build up and pull through the winter so well, I would tend to think that her genes are pretty good.
It hurts me to say it to such a sweet beekeeper, but I think you've got to reassess your hive management.  But don't feel bad, for a starter, you've progressed rapidly and understand what's going on in the hives.

[Jen]

For Ef- When the hives started to move toward swarming (raising new queens):

1. Did the bees seem at all crowded (did they cover most of the frames in mid day (at the time when a laarge percentaage of the family is out at work)?

Absolutely Yes! I was learning about nucs and splits so that I would know what to do come May 1st. The bees beat me to it by swarming on March 16th. 6 weeks early

2. Did you give them frames for building?  When they are busy expanding, they have less time to plan for swarming.

Two deeps: At the time they had an open bottom deep, I was planning a split, but didn't know about switching the bottom to the top. I do know that now 

3. Was there adequate ventilation---wide enough an entrance to keep the hives from running hot? (Had you cleaned away the accumuations of propolis around the inner sides of the entrance, the floor and the frames' tops and sides)?

No.. was getting ready to do that by learning how to split first. But I do believe there was adequate ventilation...

4. Did the hives have enough room for expansion?

This was the part I didn't know about before this years swarms. The bottom deep was pretty empty, I thought they would go down, they didn't. And I've learned from other beeks that their bees didn't go down either. That's when it's time to switch the bottom to the top. I can do that next year.... if I have any bees left 

Ef- I assume you probably have the correct answer for these questions, but figure that they should be addressed anyway.

Jen- Yes! I have learned a multitude of great information since January. And you my friend Ef, are one of my favorites to listen to because you teach in a simple manner that is easy to understand. Thank you from my bee heart ~Hugs for you~ 

[efmesch]

 
Bees are a lifetime learning experience

[apisbees]

The clincher was when the swarm that was hived issued a swarm of it's own. The parent hive still had emerging brood and and a new queen that was not mated and potability laying at capacity. But for the swarm to swarm so quickly! Either  lack of pheromones or very swarmy bees. With the new queens if the stop the building of queen cells then it points to lack of pheromones if the continue on building cells for another 6 to 9 weeks then it points to worker bee genetics wanting to swarm. watch them closely at first and if the settle down and behave nicely then you can relax the search and destroy mission.

[Jen]

Ef- ""If there was a week between each swarm (lets count it as days 1,8 &15), they were all from the same queen, just that the family started raising the queens with a break.  Could be that there were a few queens that were eliminated also in royal battles or while still inside their cells (the second situation is more likely).  The queen cells that were too undeveloped didn't interest the emerged virgins, so they wern't eliminated before leaving the hive.""

Sooo, what i think you are saying is that every time there is a new emerged virgin, a fight will ensue (I do know this). If there is a surplus of queen cells/virgins to be born, there is continual fighing. A battle ground in constant progress. In this event... there is no production going on in the hive, no egg laying, so the hive will be struggling to build.

Okay, I get that part.

Going back to the beginning, with the first swarm this year. Listening to our conversation today, I understand the reasons for spring swarming. What I don't understand is why the swarming continued for 6 weeks and added up to 10 swarms of which all were caught and hived. The swarms that were hived were swarming as well. And, last week I was gleaning a swarm hive of queen cells to ready it for the introduction of a new queen.. and it contained 29 capped queen cells.

If you can help solve this dilema, I will be your best friend forever 
 

[LazyBkpr]

The clincher for me was when the hived swarms started swarming..   I try to do quite a bit to make sure the brood area is opened up and they are not crowded, but when a swarm is hived they have a lot of work to get done. Making queen cells should not be one of the priorities..   Perhaps a supercedure cell if the queen was not well mated that early, but not swarm cells.  I have a gut feeling the new queens will make a difference, and I have high hopes the virgin that killed the replacement queen will settle in to do some work before deciding to run off with a pile of bees.

[apisbees]

A little off topic, It relates but not saying this is the issue in this case or that you did it. I have heard and seen it where the beekeeper with good intentions will add an empty frame in the middle of the brood to give the queen more room to lay in and she doesn't cross the empty frame to check for missed cells or cells that have emerged to lay in on the separated frames thus her pheromones wear off and the bees will start cells because of the lack of pheromones. The same as what can happen when frames are pulled up above a queen excluder.

[iddee]

Jen, how many swarms did you actually see leaving the hive? And how many did you discover after they were airborne or gathered in a cluster?