Helped inspect 3 hives today and have some questions

[Bamabww]

A former scout of mine called and told me he needed some help inspected his late granddads hives.  His hives have been neglected since September 2013, the last time anyone remembers him working the hives when he pulled the honey off.

It seems from what the family remembers, he pulled the honey supers off, extracted the honey and put the frames with foundation back on for the bees to clean up.  Unfortunately he had a stroke after that and never recovered.

There were 3 hives. Each hive had 2 deep brood boxes and 2 shallow honey supers. The first hive had uncapped "honey" in both supers. The frames were covered with bees in both deeps and they were heavy enough that I didn't try to lift them off once I felt how much they weighed. We did see the queen and her attendants running around getting away from us as we pulled a frame out of the bottom deep. I closed this one back up satisfied it was healthy enough to survive and thrive. 

The second hive had capped honey in both of the honey supers almost ready to pull off. The two deeps were full of bees and just as heavy as the first hive. I found the queen in here also, in the bottom deep.

The third hive worries me. There was no honey in either of the supers, no drawn comb beyond 2 or 3 partial frames that had been drawn out. The deeps were loaded with bees and we found the queen but with a careful inspection of each frame in both deeps, I did not see any eggs, larva, or brood, none at all.  There were empty cells that looked cleaned and ready for her majesty to use.

The queen looked healthy and with no obvious defect as broken wing / leg. But I couldn't find any evidence at all that she had been laying. I did find 2 queen "peanuts" in the top deep that were opened / empty. There was no capped brood waiting to open and looking at each frame with the sun shining in the cells I could not see any eggs.

The grandmother told me there had been two swarms from these hives within the last couple of weeks but she didn't know anyone to call. (Now she does.)  What is going on with this hive? I know there is a queen present, I saw her twice with her attendants each time.

I'd appreciate any opinion you might share about this situation. I'm sure I left out something that would help you so feel free to ask questions that might help us figure out what is going on with hive # 3.

[G3farms]

I would say you have a young queen in hive 3, give her a couple of weeks to see if she settles out and starts laying.

[apisbees]

What G3 said if both cells were open at the bottom and not one chewed out the side then it is probable the hive issued a prim swarm and then a cast swarm when the bees protected the 2nd queen cell.
By the sounds of the first 2 they could be getting close to wanting to issue swarms also.

[LazyBkpr]

What G and Apis said.
   I would give the #3 hive a few more days to see what happens. I might also give them a frame of brood with no bees from another hive. Maybe one from each of the strong hives to slow them down a bit, and reviatalize the weak hive.

[riverbee]

"There were empty cells that looked cleaned and ready for her majesty to use."

wayne, what g said, young queen.  that fact that you noticed the appearance of the cells 'cleaned and ready'......the bees 'spit shine and polish' cells for the queen to lay in.  also, you said the hive had swarmed twice, (so young queen) and the queen had attendants, which would tell me she is mated. if she weren't, the bees would pay no attention to her.  like all have said, give her some time.  good luck! and how cool of you to help the family out like that.

[Bamabww]

Thanks to all of you for your evaluations and advice.   

 I hope I can steer my former scout into adopting his granddaddy's bees. We'll check all 3 hives again in 2 or 3 weeks.

[pistolpete]

I think you should give some thought to splitting these hives.  If you don't they'll just swarm.  Going into prime swarm season with hives overflowing with bees is asking for trouble.  You can do a simple walk away split, or take the time to pull a nice 5 frame Nuc from each hive and open up the brood nests a bit.   Also would be good to evaluate Varroa levels, since these hives have not been treated in any way.

[Perry]

What G3  said
What Apis said
What Lazy said
What River said
What Pistol said

 

[LazyBkpr]

Yup! What Perry said!!   

[riverbee]

give us an update wayne and let us know how the hives are doing, and if you convinced your scout friend into 'adopting' the hives.  the hives and the scout have a good mentor....

[efmesch]

What Lazy said (second time around) + what Riverbee said. 

Kinda boring when everyone agrees----but it should carry some weight. 

[Bamabww]

give us an update wayne and let us know how the hives are doing,

You're all a lot of help and I really appreciate it. I talked with him late yesterday and he had been back over to look at but didn't go into the hives. He said all three were very active and he was warned he was a little to close.  I told him that was just their way of saying, "we like you and want you to come back." He said he was seriously thinking about moving the hives to his property about 3 miles away.

So far so good.

[efmesch]

A three mile move might be too short a distance for all the bees to home in on their new location.  If he choses to move them directly (without a more distant--5 miles and greater-- interim stopover for a week somewhere else), he should be sure to place a nuc with a few frames to catch those stubborn bees that insist on staying where they were originally.

[riverbee]

good deal wayne!

ef, funny what you said, it's never boring when we are talking bees, even when we repeat ourselves......now some of the guys recently talk math when they are talking bees, THAT gets boring....well okay, OVERSIMPLIFIED.......

moving 3 miles ef, i think he would be okay?  i have a place 3 miles down the road from me that i have always moved divides to, (not full hives) but has always worked out okay for me, except for worrying about the bears.....

[LazyBkpr]

My fathers place where I have an outyard is two miles west, almost exactly as the crow flies from my house. I have another yard 2.5 miles from my fathers place also west, and I have an outyard 3.5 miles from my fathers place to the north. I have not experienced any difficulties when moving that distance.
   In fact, I will be installing the new queens in nuc's on Tuesday if everything goes according to plan and moving those nucs to my fathers place..  Two spits will be going to the north outyard as well. I will put empty hives back in the original locations and see what gathers in them.
   I have had occasion to move hives about the same yard, but always block the entrance with something to make the bees re orient, and it has worked quite well...   Learning the rules is going to really mess up my methods!!!!!   I am quite sure, now that I know this rule, that I will never be able to move a hive again without all the foragers going back to the original location...   and it will be all Ef's fault!!!     

[pistolpete]

three miles is 5 kilometers.  That's about the maximum range of foraging.  With an abundance of nectar sources, bees seldom venture more than 1 mile. 

[efmesch]

If you don't put a nuc to collect the slow learners, you'll never know how many you lost.   
I always thought that maximum range was 5 miles (=8 km).

[iddee]

I think you will find the max is about 7.2 mile, but the bees only go the distance needed to find food. They may travel even farther, but burn more energy than the nectar they can carry yields, so is a losing proposition.

[apisbees]

The bees upon exiting will realize that the hive is in a different location and note the new hive location so they can return to the new hives location. The fact that the hive is within the flying radios of the original hive is irreverent as long as the scenery when the bees exit the hive has changed for them to take notice of the new surroundings. A 1/4 mile is a distance great enough so the bees will reorientate to the new location and then return to that location.
I have had conversations when people have moved their hive and then had bees return to that location the next day. I have seen it also when the hives were moved at night the bees screened in the hives moved over 10 miles away. some bees don't make it back to the hive and spend the night out in the grass and return the next day to where the hive was. It seems like a lot of bees when they are circling where the hive was but put them on a frame and there are not that many.