Author Topic: Putting an emtpy deep over or under two productive mediums  (Read 9801 times)

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Offline Jen

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The last swarm I caught was a small one, we put it into a bare bones medium, just frames and new wired/wax frames. We were fresh out of any resources to add and help them out. This swarm is now two mediums high and growing.

I would like to get a deep under the two mediums. That's how we want all of our hives to start out.

Can I put this deep below them, and they will take the queen down?

Or should I put the deep on top, let them work up? And then reverse in the fall?
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Online iddee

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Re: Putting an emtpy deep over or under two productive mediums
« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2014, 03:04:35 pm »
Either will work.
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Offline LazyBkpr

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Re: Putting an emtpy deep over or under two productive mediums
« Reply #2 on: May 14, 2014, 03:32:37 pm »
Bees naturally build down from above, so they should draw it fine. We normally do it the other way around because its easier for the beekeeper, the bees dont really care.
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Offline Jen

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Re: Putting an emtpy deep over or under two productive mediums
« Reply #3 on: May 14, 2014, 03:39:37 pm »
Thanks Guys!  ;)  I was under the impression that bees build up, but I may be confusing that with bees moving up in the winter. I would prefer to put the deep under cause that's were it gonna stay.
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Offline efmesch

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Re: Putting an emtpy deep over or under two productive mediums
« Reply #4 on: May 14, 2014, 03:42:13 pm »
It's what they say, "six of one, half a dozen of the other".
Just for the info---will the frames of the deep have foundation?  If not, beware of the possibility that they'll build exactly where they shouldn't----unless you guide them to the right spots.

Offline Jen

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Re: Putting an emtpy deep over or under two productive mediums
« Reply #5 on: May 14, 2014, 03:47:01 pm »
Good day Ef- I seriously want to go foundationless. This is going to be a stationary deep, everything above it will be mediums. Maybe I should try that on this hive? Hmmmm
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Offline apisbees

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Re: Putting an emtpy deep over or under two productive mediums
« Reply #6 on: May 14, 2014, 04:44:39 pm »
If you go foundation less put it under so the bees draw worker size cells so the queen can lay eggs for brood if placed above the bees will draw it for honey storage and it will be drone size cells.
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Offline efmesch

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Re: Putting an emtpy deep over or under two productive mediums
« Reply #7 on: May 14, 2014, 04:55:53 pm »
I seriously want to go foundationless.

1. A popsicle stick placed and waxed into the slot of the top bar should help guide the bees to building in the frames and not between them. Be sure the frames are tightly squeezed together.
2. The importance of Apis's comment cannot be overemphasized.
3. Good luck  :)

Offline Jen

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Re: Putting an emtpy deep over or under two productive mediums
« Reply #8 on: May 14, 2014, 06:53:16 pm »
Apis and Efmesch - do you guys go foundationless? or do you use foundation? curious
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Offline Woody Roberts

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Re: Putting an emtpy deep over or under two productive mediums
« Reply #9 on: May 14, 2014, 07:58:09 pm »
What ef said about Apis is correct. What ef said about the frames being tight together cannot be emphasized enough.

Offline apisbees

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Re: Putting an emtpy deep over or under two productive mediums
« Reply #10 on: May 14, 2014, 09:38:20 pm »
Only where the bees have to repair holes from mice and other damage if it is a small area otherwise I use crimped wired wax foundation with 2 horizontal cross wires.
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Offline LazyBkpr

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Re: Putting an emtpy deep over or under two productive mediums
« Reply #11 on: May 14, 2014, 09:57:43 pm »
If you HAVE foundation, I would recommend letting them draw it, and then as time goes past, rotate in frames with no foundation between the frames of drawn foundation..
   Why??
   Because bees are like women, unpredictable and prone to doing things their own way, even when it was carefully explained how it should be done...    :laugh:

   If you drop in all foundation-less there is about a 70% chance they will do everything right on deeps. If you alternate foundation and empty frames you increase the odds somewhat.. maybe 85%.. if you put an empty frame between two fully drawn frames, the % goes up to around 95% and saves you some hassle..  what about that other 5%??
   THAT, falls into the category of their gender.. you can give them a frame and they may do really ODD things to it, no matter if its got foundation or not.   :laugh: 



   If you dont mind fixing it if they start to deviate or build cross comb, then by all means go for it!!!
   K, Gonna go hide now!!   ;D
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Offline Jen

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Re: Putting an emtpy deep over or under two productive mediums
« Reply #12 on: May 14, 2014, 10:51:40 pm »
Mkay, I don't have any deep frames or foundation. Swarms ran me out of wood work. But I'll start out that way. I'm constantly trying to switch out the plastic/insert frames all the time anyway, so no big deal. Thanks, for the percentage explaination, that's what I'm looking for  ;) 8)
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Offline LazyBkpr

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Re: Putting an emtpy deep over or under two productive mediums
« Reply #13 on: May 14, 2014, 11:03:37 pm »
Might I ask why you want to use a single deep with mediums over them? Why not just use all mediums so you can interchange frames anywhere you need them?  Or all deeps for the same reason?  Deeps with honey would be HEAVY but the ability to put the frames anywhere you wanted them has proven invaluable to me with all medium boxes..
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Offline Jen

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Re: Putting an emtpy deep over or under two productive mediums
« Reply #14 on: May 14, 2014, 11:51:40 pm »
This goes back to hubby. I want to go all mediums. But hubs would like to start the base with one deep that would remain stationary, and then I could move all the mediums by myself. His reasoning is "Why would you want to move the base deep? the only thing it's going to do is have brood in it?"

I'm not sure I have an arguement for him. So, we compromise with one deep and the rest mediums. He hasn't taken this much interest before so I'm letting him have some pull  :)
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Offline LazyBkpr

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Re: Putting an emtpy deep over or under two productive mediums
« Reply #15 on: May 15, 2014, 12:24:58 am »
  Because the bees will bring in pesticides and other unwanted chemicals that the wax will soak up like a sponge, so every few years you will want to ratate the comb out so they produce fresh clean wax. The easiest way to do that, is to pull that bottom box in the early spring when the bees are in teh top box. Set the #2 box on the bottom board, with the #3 box on top of it. Put new comb in the old bottom box..  if your using foundationless, you simply cut the comb out and drop the frame back int eh box, and put it on top, making it your new top brood box..
   In using mediums, I winter in three medium boxes, its the same volume as two deeps, so I rotate my comb out every three years. The added advantage is moving the bees down a bit so there is room above them as they rebuild that comb. Every so often they get stubborn, and decide NOT to move down.. so in effect, they feel crowded up there in that top box and decide to swarm, despite the fact that they have two empty boxes under them.
   Another issue, is if they decide to fill frames with honey in that bottom box.. what do you do with it? You can extract them, or freeze them.. but they will need to draw the frames you replace them with...  If you have all the same size box, you can move the honey up where it belongs, while moving DOWN a drawn frame to open the brood area back up... They dont have to draw it out, its already prepared.
 There are quite a list of reasons to standardize your boxes/frames.   
   What you are doing will certainly work,  I'm just trying to point out the advantages of having your frames all the same size.  If he likes deeps, then go with all deeps, but make HIM lift them.    :o   That will fix his wagon!!!   ;D
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Offline Jen

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Re: Putting an emtpy deep over or under two productive mediums
« Reply #16 on: May 15, 2014, 12:45:08 am »
Good bit of advice here Scott! He nor I have had to consider the rotation of wax before, I see it now. Especially with the neighbor next that is spraying Round Up through out his entire yard, I think I shall go box his ears tomorrow on his lunch break.

It will take a bit of time to get this idea across and frankly we have been through it enough for awhile, I'll print this out and stash it in my folder for later use in the cheap hotel ~snark~  ;)
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Offline pistolpete

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Re: Putting an emtpy deep over or under two productive mediums
« Reply #17 on: May 15, 2014, 02:07:16 am »
I agree 100% that all your boxes should be the same depth.  It gives you so much more flexibility in your bee management.   You should also consider what the trend is in your area.  Around here everybody that I know of runs deeps.  So if I want to sell a couple of Nucs now and then, the frames have to be deeps.    When  the deeps get too heavy, I just use spare Nuc boxes to cut the weight in half before lifting anything.
My advice: worth price charged :)

Offline riverbee

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Re: Putting an emtpy deep over or under two productive mediums
« Reply #18 on: May 15, 2014, 11:57:47 am »
jen, this is a personal preference and really, what works for you.  there are advantages and disadvantages to each, (same size equipment). comb can be easily rotated out of any box, so i wouldn't let this be a deciding factor.  i use deeps for brood and mediums for honey, but have enough equipment on hand to address a situation that arises.  if you go with all mediums, you will need two mediums to equal the deep.
also, deeps are nice to have around for a nice fat swarm capture...... :D

as far as placing the deep under or over, either way would work.  i think i'd be inclined to put it on the bottom, so you are not reversing in the fall, but i think i read here that you have no foundation or frames and are out of woodwork?  if so, i would place anything that is not drawn out on top, and feed them if necessary until it is. 

" I'm constantly trying to switch out the plastic/insert frames all the time anyway"

jen, take your time with this, it doesn't all have to come out this season, just my 3 cent HO...... ;)
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Offline Jen

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Re: Putting an emtpy deep over or under two productive mediums
« Reply #19 on: May 15, 2014, 12:10:00 pm »
Riv- ""as far as placing the deep under or over, either way would work.  i think i'd be inclined to put it on the bottom, so you are not reversing in the fall, but i think i read here that you have no foundation or frames and are out of woodwork?  if so, i would place anything that is not drawn out on top, and feed them if necessary until it is.""

     Yes I have to start the deep bare bones with new frames and wax foundation. So do you mean to put the deep on top until drawn out and then put it below? 
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