Who Goes Foundationless On This Forum

[iddee]

What tec is saying needs to be divided between experienced and inexperienced beeks. He is saying the learning curve for a new beek is steep enough to make many, "maybe most", newbees throw in the towel. They put in starter strips of some kind,set the hive down, and add a package and queen. Check in one week and she is out and laying. Check again in 30 days and finds a labyrinth of comb that will have to be totally removed. It's like queen excluders. Be prepared to pay a high tuition to learn to use excluders or foundationless.

[efmesch]

To Alfred: a big WELCOME.  Keep posting.
To Jen: Mostly I use foundation.  Occasionally, if I'm out of foundation, I'll go foundationless.  The last few weeks, when I've been low on foundation, I've been using half a sheet per frame---But I always use wired frames. Even if I don't have foundation I want the bees to build with the wires in the mid-rib of the combs, otheriwse I have problems of the combs tearing out of the frames during extraction.
Woody and Lazy: What Tec is saying is "USE FOUNDATION--EVERYBODY".

[iddee]

""What Tec is saying is "USE FOUNDATION--EVERYBODY".""

I would add "If you want the fewest headaches and the smoothest ride."

[LazyBkpr]

What tec is saying needs to be divided between experienced and inexperienced beeks. He is saying the learning curve for a new beek is steep enough to make many, "maybe most", newbees throw in the towel. They put in starter strips of some kind,set the hive down, and add a package and queen. Check in one week and she is out and laying. Check again in 30 days and finds a labyrinth of comb that will have to be totally removed. It's like queen excluders. Be prepared to pay a high tuition to learn to use excluders or foundationless.

   I cant argue that Iddee...   A quote from my website;

  I get a lot of resistance when saying I wish I had started with foundation-less. Most saying that it will ruin a beginning beekeeper..
   I suppose there is some merit to that. It does take a little different management and care. The FIRST partially drawn foundation-less frame I EVER pulled out of a hive fell off the frame and landed on my boot. The bees were NOT impressed! Handling them requires a different mindset and technique. Once they are well attached and have started to harden, they are no more difficult to deal with than wax foundation. I DO wish I had started out using them, but I am a determined individual that is hard to discourage when doing something I enjoy. I know I would not have given up because of a couple of messed up combs, but will agree that it may not be for everyone, especially starting out from scratch.

   I DO argue the point about more headaches. Fixing wonky comb is way easier with foundation-less, it requires a rubber band or two..

   Fixing foundation?

  Wood with plastic foundation pictured below. The corner pulled apart at some point so the bees "Fixed it"  In order for me to fix it, i have to scrape and dig the groove out, cut the wax away from the plastic so i can slide it back into place, then re glue and nail the frame, or replace the bottom bar entirely. Can it be done?  Yep, but I have found that the bees dont like to draw over the plastic once it has been scraped, so it will also require some melted wax for them to return it to a pristine frame.
   


   This one is just drawn in drone comb..   I did scrape it the first time and gave it back, they made a mess over the scraped part, drawing some of it and chewing the wax off other parts, and they STILL made what they rebuilt into drone comb. The second time, I scraped the frame CLEAN, and re waxed the frame, then gave it back to them... and this is what they did.. They built even more drone comb than it had originally over top of large cell plastic...



   And then we have a warped wax frame.  Not sure how it got warped like that, got bumped or dropped etc.. what i am sure of is that its a little more difficult to go through and snip wires to cut out the warped part and get it straightened back up. Over half of it gets buggered up when making the attempt. Not so sure it would be less work for them than drawing a new frame..
   Edit.. OOPS wrong picture, but my point is the same.



   With foundation-less.. I can simply cut out the bad part and give it back. I can cut out the bad part and rubber band it into the frame correctly. When the three to five year rotation time is up, I can cut out the old comb and give them the frame back.  In the event you don't like all the drone comb they build? Have the nuc's or young colonies in your yard draw out new frames, they will build worker comb, not drone comb.
   This comb is already attached at the bottom, and can be handled as you would any other frame



    Now I am going to agree, that plastic has advantages in sturdiness and simplicity of installation and use, As well as having an advantage in straight smooth comb. Right up until something goes wrong with it, OR, it needs to be rotated out, scraped clean and re waxed.
   Plastic/plastic frames are even easier to deal with, until they get propolised in, then they flex a lot and ears break when yo do need to pry on them a bit.
   Wood/Wired wax Isnt a lot different than foundation-less except that you have the TIME to assemble them, and you have to deal with wires. It NEVER fails that the queen cell i found ws DIRECTLY over top of a wire, so i have to get the side cutters out to clip said wire. Fixing them is as easy as removing the bad spots between the wires... but.. wait, isnt that foundation-less now? Then there is also the TIME in removing the old wax and installing new, and what do you do with several thousand little pieces of wire?

   I will do a vid of extracting the foundation-less frames. I have found it much easier since I plugged the old brush type electric motor into this;



   In all honesty, I have no argument about using ANY foundation type, as long as it works for YOU.  I just cant abide not arguing the advantages of saving money on foundation.   

[Jen]

Very Informative thread! Learned a lot and was able to make a plan for myself ~ Thanks Everyone~


Scott- re; post #18

Sounds convincing to me. I would like to give it a go when my hives are strong and stable again, maybe next year ~

[iddee]

I could counter each statement, but why? Improper installation will always cause problems anywhere.
Properly set up wax with wires at the proper time will result in beautiful frames with less trouble in the hive.
Yes, it is more work before installing bees, but in my opinion, well worth the cost and effort for a new beek.
Experienced beeks can do many things that would totally confuse and discourage a newbee.

[Jen]

I agree with that Iddee, for a new beek it would be far too confusing without a constant mentor. I like the idea that the bees can work the way they were born to work. I really love their own architecture ~ it's the artist in me, can't help it 

[LazyBkpr]

I could counter each statement, but why?

   So those good folks reading get the whole picture.

Improper installation will always cause problems anywhere.
Properly set up wax with wires at the proper time will result in beautiful frames with less trouble in the hive.

   Less trouble than properly set up and spaced foundation-less frames?  Perhaps..... I have had equally bad messes either way. I can't honestly say I have had less with foundation than foundation-less. One issue with all new foundation is that the bees decide to draw one side of a frame really deep into the still empty frame opposite it, but, they can do the same thing with two frames with no foundation...

Yes, it is more work before installing bees, but in my opinion, well worth the cost and effort for a new beek.
Experienced beeks can do many things that would totally confuse and discourage a newbee.

  Totally agree.  Were we talking about a new beekeeper?
   

[Jen]

Iddee - ""I could counter each statement, but why?''

Scott - ""So those good folks reading get the whole picture.""

HULLO! YA!  I've been at it into my fourth year now. I was steered down too many wrong roads the first three, that's why my frames are in the mess that they are, But they're getting better and better due to all the 'whole picture' advice I get on this forum. And I'm pretty darned sure that all of my bees would have been up and gone by now if not for this forum. Still crossing my fingers tho ~

 

[shinjak]

I am a beginner and have chosen to go foundationless. Hopefully it is a decision I will not regret. But Scott's arguments for foundationless far outweigh anybody's argument against it in my book. Foundation is just one more thing to be dependent on the bee catalogs for, and I am really trying to eliminate those dependencies. But I may eat those words, so stay tuned.

[Jen]

Hey Shin ~ I applaud your decision!  I think you can go foundation-less is you have someone with you like Scott aka LazyBkpr. Pm him when you need help, he's a Great and patient teacher. No doubt I'll be doing the same when I get to that point.

[barry42001]

everything depends on what you're trying to accomplish with your bees, and your level of experience with bees. I personally stick with what I have learned. I use foundation for everything no exceptions. not all that long ago the only thing I used was crimped wire foundation, in both the breed chambers and the extracting Supers. it wasn't until this year when I got a little lazy, ordered mann lake complete hide kits, and deep supers. they come painted and assembled, frames are wood, with cellrite foundation. it took a little bit for the bees start working on it, now there's not a problem. the whether was crimp wired foundation or cellrite I never got wonky comb, a little bit of burr comb, but don't we all.
Plasticell is junk. there is a definite time and convenience factor using foundation and having relatively perfect comes. and to me more importantly the bees will not be able, to repurpose the comb into unwanted drone comb.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk

[LazyBkpr]

LOL Shinjack..

    There IS merit in what Iddee is saying, but getting him to elaborate is a lot like the struggle I used to go through to get information from my mentor.
   If your determined, an occasional mess wont deter you. Get rubber bands and keep them handy. If they make a mess, cut the comb loose, straighten it, rubber band it in place and put it back in, they will fix it up in no time, even the spots you squish with your fingers handling it. To me, it is part of the fun and the challenge.  If I fix a comb, I struggle NOT to go back in two days and see if they have it all fixed yet...  Every day is filled with some form of excitement and interest.


 Barry, did you look at the pictures above?  If they WANT drone comb, it doesnt matter what you have in there for foundation..   Plasticell? Is that the stuff that has the plastic shim between the wax with the metal ends?  If it is, then I agree completely. I really dont like that stuff.

[Jen]

I don't want any plastic whatsoever! I've got that project of switching out going all the time!

Still.. foundationless feels right to me ~

[iddee]

""Were we talking about a new beekeeper?""

Who else can possibly "start out" with foundationless??

""If your determined, an occasional mess wont deter you. Get rubber bands and keep them handy.""

FOR SURE. That's my main point. Thanks, Scott, you said it all for me.

[LazyBkpr]

hehe, rubber bands sure beat replacing the frame or scraping and re waxing..   I will degress now!!  dont want Iddee driving up here, at least carrying a baseball bat.

[iddee]

Rubber banding every few days may be better than installing new wax every 5 years to you, but it sure ain't to me.
Of course, you don't do it every few days. You aren't just beginning. I think it's a safe bet you got plenty of rubber banding practice when you began, tho.

The only way i will drive that far is if you have a beer truck parked in the yard.

[Jen]

Is it my imagination? or is Mr. Wizard being a snarky pants today?...

[iddee]

Just teasing scott, jen. It's fun when he says boys are more masculine and I say girls are more feminine, then watching his reactions. 

He's speaking of old beeks and I'm talking newbees. Totally different ballgame.

[LazyBkpr]

hehe, I was actually pushing him a bit trying to get him to say more. I do owe him you know.

   I will refer back to what I have on my website..   

    I get a lot of resistance when saying I wish I had started with foundation-less. Most saying that it will ruin a beginning beekeeper..
   I suppose there is some merit to that.

   http://outyard.weebly.com/frames.html

    So despite all the arguing, I do agree.... with ALMOST all of what he says