My first time nuc building thoughts...

[Intheswamp]

I've been wanting to write this post for a while but always procrastinated.     I got a reply from LazyBkpr where I mentioned my 3(?) year old hive that always makes plenty of bees...but no surplus honey.  He went on to say that that colony was a valuable asset to the apiary...his response got me to get up off of my hiney and start this thread...thanks Lazy!

Well, I may have more sense than I thought I did (which will amaze my wife! ), as I was thinking since that hive didn't make honey I might as well use the bees for something.  I am going to make my first attempt at making nucs this summer after I harvest...the big flow is over around me, the privet has gone, there's still some blackberry, and there are clovers still blooming...not sure of what else, the bees are still bringing stuff in but not at the feverish pitch as they did earlier.  I'm figuring on harvesting probably the end of June(?).     I will probably shoot for 2-3 nucs from my best hive's queen.  I don't want to take away any resources from her other than eggs and/or larvae.  Here's some of my thoughts (right or wrong )...

I'm still pondering how to get the bees to make the queen cells.  I won't be grafting, so I'm looking at cell-punching, cutting strips of brood comb with larvae and attaching these to a homebrew queen cell frame, or using the OTS method.  Though, with the OTS method I'd have to move an entire frame of brood from my good hive...I like the idea of only removing what I need.   I thought about the Hopkins method but seems like a big waste of brood for the few queens that I will need...maybe an option for later when I have a couple of hundred hives. 

I plan to use the "bee producer" colony to make queen cells for me as it usually has a high population of bees.  I've read in many places to make the hive queenless before giving them the young larvae.  Seems I've also read about putting the larvae above a queen excluder in a queenright colony and that nurse bees will move up to take care of them and will make queen cells.  I would like to use the "bee producer" hive without making it queenless...is that possible? 

Once the cells are capped (provided all works out well!) I plan to put two in each nuc along with two frames of brood and bees from the "bee producer".  I figure I can take some pollen and honey from this colony but also from other colonies, so there should be plenty of resources to give to the nucs.  If I needed to I should be able to take a frame of brood from some of the other colonies, too.

I'm thinking two frames of brood/bees (probably with honey/pollen included, a frame of pollen and honey, a frame of empty comb, and a frame of foundation or empty frame.  I plan to use an 8-frame medium for each nuc and use a follower board to reduce the cavity size...this will give me a little room to expand in before needing to super the nuc or move it to a regular hive setup.

I'm curious about timing here in south Alabama.  It will be hot in July, but we should still have plenty of time for the nucs to build up.  There should be plenty of drones flying (I think).  I intend to feed them both a pollen sub and syrup, but the goldenrod and aster probably won't show up until September/October.  I'm thinking that I will need to be prepared for possible robbing issues....entrance reducers or robber screens...even possibly moving the nucs to a remote location (though I'd rather have them close by for monitoring).

I know that is a *very basic* nutshell and I've gone back and rewritten parts of it so I may have some disjointed thoughts here.   

I'm open for critique...I'm looking for "simple" (like my mind)....be genteel.

Thanks!
Ed

[iddee]

"""Seems I've also read about putting the larvae above a queen excluder in a queenright colony and that nurse bees will move up to take care of them and will make queen cells.  I would like to use the "bee producer" hive without making it queenless...is that possible?"""

First, put the excluder on, being sure the queen is below and the open brood is above. Provide a top entrance. Next, wait 24 hours and put a solid sheet on top the excluder and add the cell starter frame. When you place the solid sheet on the excluder, the top box becomes queenless. Wait another 48 hours and remove the solid sheet. They will continue to care for the q cells that have been started, and the hive is queenrite again.

[Beeboy]

"""Seems I've also read about putting the larvae above a queen excluder in a queenright colony and that nurse bees will move up to take care of them and will make queen cells.  I would like to use the "bee producer" hive without making it queenless...is that possible?"""

First, put the excluder on, being sure the queen is below and the open brood is above. Provide a top entrance. Next, wait 24 hours and put a solid sheet on top the excluder and add the cell starter frame. When you place the solid sheet on the excluder, the top box becomes queenless. Wait another 48 hours and remove the solid sheet. They will continue to care for the q cells that have been started, and the hive is queenrite again.

WOW! Just WOW!

[kebee]

 Thanks Iddee, I  may try this myself, for it sounds like a great way to start queen cells and get one up and running.

Ken

[LazyBkpr]

"""Seems I've also read about putting the larvae above a queen excluder in a queenright colony and that nurse bees will move up to take care of them and will make queen cells.  I would like to use the "bee producer" hive without making it queenless...is that possible?"""

First, put the excluder on, being sure the queen is below and the open brood is above. Provide a top entrance. Next, wait 24 hours and put a solid sheet on top the excluder and add the cell starter frame. When you place the solid sheet on the excluder, the top box becomes queenless. Wait another 48 hours and remove the solid sheet. They will continue to care for the q cells that have been started, and the hive is queenrite again.

   Every so often there comes along a jewel of an idea so good you feel like an idiot for not thinking of it yourself..
   I have tried cells in a queen right colony above an excluder in a second hive box... so the queen cells were even further from the excluder, but was not overly impressed with the results...    this simple idea will most likely FIX the issues I encountered....       
   

[Intheswamp]

Thanks iddee, but wouldn't isolating the nurse bees and open brood above the excluder and solid partition of some sort be the same thing as using a cloake board??

Ed

ETA: Info on the cloake board rom Robo's website... http://robo.bushkillfarms.com/beekeeping/queen-rearing/

ETA2:  Here's a nice pdf file for using a cloake board setup... http://www.delta-business.com/CalgaryBeekeepers/Bee-Club-Library/Queens%20and%20Nucs/Cloake%20Board%20Method%20of%20Queen%20Rearing%20and%20Banking%20Sue%20Cobey.pdf

[iddee]

Yes, but cheaper, or easier to make. 

[Intheswamp]

Well, minor progress.  I had a few extra minutes so I hobbled together a queen cell frame.  I figure I won't need but a half dozen queen cells to cover two nucs...there's plenty room here for that many if I can get the bees to make them.  I'm not sure about the vertical space between the bars.  These are medium frames since all my boxes are basically 8-frame mediums.  There is 2-1/8" of vertical space in the lower section and 2-1/4" vertical space in the upper section...I *think* this should be enough space for either a strip of brood comb or either punched cells and the (hopefully) resulting queen cells.   

[Intheswamp]

Yes, but cheaper, or easier to make. 

I do believe you are a man after my own heart, iddee, I like cheap and easy, too.   

I appreciate the feedback, iddee, you've got me on a possible path here, thanks!  The theory behind it all is more or less what I was getting at.

Ed

[pistolpete]

This is only my second year producing a limited amount of Nucs, so there are more experienced beeks here.   I have a couple of suggestions:  You want the genetics of your most gentle and most productive hives to carry forward.  So don't use eggs from a non productive hive for your genetics.   Pick your best all round queen to supply the eggs and use your bee producing hive for the workforce.    I really like the OTS for it's extreme simplicity. 

If you are raising like 20 queens a full strength hive is best, but for just a couple of queen cells a strong Nuc has plenty of resources (especially if your nights are warm).    If it were me, I'd use 2 frames of capped brood from your bee producer and a frame of eggs from your best honey producer.  Put the eggs in the middle and notch 1 day old larvae near the middle of the frame.   Shake in extra bees to keep things warm.    The only thing that can go wrong is you accidentally put the queen in the Nuc, but that becomes obvious 3 days later. 

[LazyBkpr]

That cell bar looks pretty good!   RUn those bars through the table saw to make a groove in the center of them and JZBZ cups will press into that groove...




   the nipple is oblong so you can turn the cup and lock it into the groove. Depending on the thickness of the kerf on your saw they may need pressed in anyhow.

   I have a frame with two bars, but typically only use one bar. Ten punched cells will fit comfortably. Thats enough for my needs, and a good STRONG nuc can raise eight to ten cells comfortably.

[rcannon]

That's one of the reasons I really like this forum. Good, solid advise from people who know what they're talking about. Lazy, Iddee , I appreciate you and the other folks like you.  You sure make things easier for us less experienced folks.

[minz]

This year I tried the Demaree swarm control method. I think it is now the Demaree Queen cell production method.  It is very similar to what is posted here but there is a super between the two deeps. The configuration is D, QE, S, D, S (the last super is optional but is the one that gets filled with honey first.  After 10 days or so I pull the top deep, shake the bees off and look for capped Queen cells.  I cull to the best one or two per frame and place that frame in a 4 way mating queen castle.  Originally I was taking a second frame of bees from my preferred hive but have now gone to pulling a brood frame from an adjacent dink.  I pull no more than a couple of frames of bees from each hive.  I find the queen and put her in that deep that now goes at the bottom of the stack and place all the brood up above the super.  I have full size hives making queen cells above an excluder in a queen right hive.  All I do is harvest.

[Perry]

 

Some great stuff here! I may well try some of this to make queens myself.

[Intheswamp]

Are the vertical spaces in these pictures large enough for a punched cell, or maybe a strip of brood comb waxed to the bar, and a queen cell to be built?  I will only be using the top bar the first time, so no problem then, but later I may try to try for more.    Ed

Top space:


Bottom space:

[Woody Roberts]

I've never done cell punch, grafting or OTS. Since I'm foundationless I make sure I have a fresh drawn frame or two with eggs and young larva on it. The bees have no problem chewing this down. Easy to cut the cells out.

My problem is when I make a strong hive queen less I could end up with 30 cells. I only have 2 four banger queen castles so eight is the most I can take.
I leave the hive a couple and tear down the rest.

Using Iddee's method I could limit the number of suitable larva and might not end up with as many.

I really don't like tearing down a good queen cell

I will certainly be trying this method as soon as I free up some mating nucs.

[Intheswamp]

Continuing on with my plotting and planning...   

Follower boards...  I will be using 8-frame mediums for the mating nucs but starting out with only 4 or 5 frames.  As the small colonies (hopefully) expand I'll add frames.  My intention is to use follower boards to keep the colony compacted but I'm not exactly sure about how to make them.  Should they be built with proper beespace so that the bees can get to the other side, or should they be pretty much a close fit to keep the bees from venturing into the empty area?  I've seen where people sometimes use styrofoam to make them while others use thin fiberboard and then some regular 1x material or plywood.

Recommendations?
Thanks!
Ed

[LazyBkpr]

How I make them;

     http://outyard.weebly.com/follower-board.html

[pistolpete]

I cut mine out of styrofoam, because I had some on hand and it took about a minute.  mine is press fit side to side, but not super tight top to bottom.   The bees can get into the empty space if they want to, but they don't seem to want to.   It would be a little different if I had two Nucs side by side in one box.

[Intheswamp]

Thanks Lazy and Pete...

Lazy, that was what I was envisioning and you did it good.  I would've wrote back quicker but I had to explore a few more of your pages.

Pete, I may go the foam board route myself...just not sure yet.  Might even help a small nuc stay a little warm if they cluster against it. 

I've got some woodworking equipment but no where right now to set it up.  Thus a drill and skil saw is about the sum total of my shop.  Follower boards are definitely doable.

Something else I'm curious about are frame feeders.  I've also seen them called "division board feeders" I think.  These seem like they would be handy but I've heard of bad bee drownings with these.  It seems I've seen some mods where #8 mesh is used to give the bees a secure footing.  It seems like a good way to feed and not encourage robbing.  My problem is ants...seems like feeding with a mason jar through an inner cover (my normal way for my hives) might work better.  Any thoughts on that?

Thanks,
Ed