Supersedure

[Woody Roberts]

Every queen I've raised last year has been superseded already this year. I did sell two so I don't know about them.
Supersedures are common for me but it's rare that I see this many. The only laying queen I have at the moment is one that will be 4 this year. There's another at my neighbors in a hive I gave him. I work them for him but technically she's not mine. She's in a nuc at the moment.

I have one that should have been laying already I think since I dont know exactly when she hatched. Two should have taken their mating flights last week. Five take their mating flights this week and 6 hatch between now and Friday.
Anyone else having abnormal supersedure rate?

I suspect it has to do with the amount of unrelated drones in the area and how many they mated with. Every year I say I'm gonna buy some queens but never do. I live in a bee desert. Other than a couple bee trees I don't know of any other bees within several miles of me.

I'm sure my bees and all the local tree bees are the same family anymore.

I have three outyards started this year. Once I raise some queens there I'll move them around a little. Spread the genetics a little.

Any thoughts?

[robo]

How are you making your queens?  Grafting?  Emergency queen in nucs?  or.....

[Woody Roberts]

Robo
I've never grafted, cell punch or any thing like that. I'm foundationless mostly and when I make the hive queen less there is always some fresh drawn comb that they usually build the cells on. Using the bee yard generator I move the cells into two frame mating nucs.

I've raised several queens in nucs and have experimented with it quite a bit. Six frames of nurse bees on young brood will always build me a pretty good queen. Four frames loaded with bees is my minimum.

I've built lots of two and three frame queens. None of them were worth a dime.
I believe the feed they get from hatch to capped is all important.
I raise most of my queens after the summer solstice and these were all born in July / August.

I've read on the forums that many hives supersede 3 times a year but mine never do. I get a year out of most, some considerably longer.

With the exception of one these were all doing a great job right up to the last.

[robo]

I've never grafted, cell punch or any thing like that. I'm foundationless mostly and when I make the hive queen less there is always some fresh drawn comb that they usually build the cells on.

I believe the feed they get from hatch to capped is all important.

I am in total agreement with your 2nd statement,  and that is the main reason why I do not like emergency queens.  To get a larvae from horizontal to vertical,  the bees thin down the royal jelly and float the larvae out to the face of the comb where they can then build the vertical queen cell.  My personal belief is that this thinned out royal jelly does not have the same nutritional value as non-thinned out.  It is also being fed at the most critical time in the queens development,  the period where the larvae is either going to become a worker or a queen.   I understand the ease of creating emergency queens for the beekeeper, but I would suggest at least doing some OTS cell cuts to reduce the need for floating the larvae.

I've raised several queens in nucs and have experimented with it quite a bit. Six frames of nurse bees on young brood will always build me a pretty good queen. Four frames loaded with bees is my minimum.

It is not just good, it is good enough 

I don't want to open the can of worms as to how big a colony is needed to make quality queens.  There are many that say it can be done in a nuc,  a lot that say a double deep, and all variations in between.   Is it 3 frames, 5 frames, 7-1/2 frames, I don't know.  But I think we can all agree that more does not hurt.

When I graft,  put about 5lbs of nurse bees in a nuc for cell starter,  and then use a double deep hive for cell finishing.

If I'm making splits without grafting,  I will take the strong hive and take the queen and 2 frames of brood in a nuc to another yard.   Then do OTS cuts in the strong hive.   Once the cells are capped,  I'll then split the hive into nucs with capped cells.   This way cells are always built by a strong full sized colony.

I've read on the forums that many hives supersede 3 times a year but mine never do. I get a year out of most, some considerably longer.

I think that is a sad statement of the quality of queens we are raising.   Unfortunately too many people think that just because we can force bees to make a queen cell,  they will make good ones.   If you look at feral colonies, supercedure is no where near as prevalent as we make it in our hives.  I often ask, if supercedure queens are just as good,  why do hives bother with queen cells?  Why don't they just up and swarm and let the old hive raise a supercedure queen?

Good luck

[Woody Roberts]

Rob

Every thing you say makes sense to me. I had never thought about the thinning of the royal jelly to float the larva out.

Quite often though I find my cells on a partially drawn frame of white wax and the cell will be hanging straight down.

However I think we're talking about two different problems. I don't have any trouble raising a queen that's a laying machine  right up until she dies.
It's fairly common for me to find two or three supersedure cells in a hive with 16 to 18 frames of brood and eggs from a overwintered queen less than a year old.

Occasionly I have a queen that falls off and I understand her being superseded.
Seems to me that when they get brood on 20 frames at the same time the bees decide its time to replace them.

I wonder if when the hive gets 2 or 3 deeps tall if the QMP gets too weak to cover the space.

Queens that make it a year go in a nuc in the spring and I tend to rob brood from them most of the summer letting them fill a single deep before winter.
Their only subjected to a double deep in the spring until the blackberries bloom. Then it's back in a nuc.

These six hives this year all superseded within a two week time frame. Their scattered over an 80 mile circle. The queens were not raised at the same time nor even at the same yard. All overwintered in a single deep and completely filled two deeps plus before getting the axe.

I was just curious if anyone else is seeing this?

As a side note it's pretty rare that I set out to raise queens. I'm an opportunist and when I can rob a swarm/ supersedure cell I'll take advantage of it if I have a place to put it.

[minz]

Do you think they are superceding her or just getting ready to swarm and leaving with only a couple of cells?

[Woody Roberts]

I've only had one hive swarm since I've been keeping bees. It was typical, lots of swarm cells, no eggs, lots of capped brood and everything else back filled with necter.

Supersedure is different, sometimes one cell, usually three, as many as five. Eggs laid right up to the capped cells. No backfilling of the broodnest until the queen is dead and the brood starts hatching out.
Cells high on the frame usually but not necessarily so.

Perhaps I'm wrong but I don't feel that they swarmed.