Spacing Frames in the Brood Box

[Barbarian]

I use UK National hives. These are bottom bee space with the frame lugs resting on frame runners (rests). For many years I have used 11 Hoffman frames plus a dummy (follower) board in the brood box ... see pic 1.  The frame side bars are 1 & 3/8  wide at the Hoffman shoulder.



Some UK beekeepers use plastic ends on the frame lugs. The ends are 1 & 7/16 long and give a slightly wider frame spacing. You can see the difference in pic 2 where I have put plastic ends on the Hoffman frames.



Another way of spacing frames is to use castellations (frame spacers). When I started keeping bees the rule was that you only used castellations in supers. Castellations did not allow you to slide frames along. About 3 years ago there was an article in my bee club newsletter by a guy who used castellations in the brood box. Last year I gave the system a try in one of my hives. The system is shown in pic 3. The Hoffman frames (from my old stock) show the slightly wider spacing.



I was quite pleased with the results. The frames were not glued together and the bees did not make more brace comb. The bees seemed content. I had no problem with snagging fingers on the castellation corners. Perhaps I might get better developed queen cells in the extra space ... wait and see. There is one slight problem ... you have to avoid rolling the bees as you lift out the first frame. I intend to change more of my hives to using castellations.

This system helps frame D.I.Y s since the side bars need only be straight and 7/8 wide.

[CpnObvious]

I'm a bit curious about the rest of the dimensions... I looks like that super hold 11 frames.  How deep and long are they? (Thank you for using SAE measurements!)

[LazyBkpr]

   I use all standard spacing, but that is JUST my preference.. I have no argument with wider or even narrower spacing, as the bees will adjust accordingly.
   The exceptions I found using nine frames in a ten frame box were when "starting" new frames. They were much more prone to create cross comb with the wider spaces.
   My other argument you already touched on, and that is moving the frames. Being a LazyBkpr I dont thoroughly scrape everything off every frame every time I do an inspection. My nine frame spacers made removing frames nearly impossible without breaking the frames when prying on them.  I have a few of the metal spacers in a pile in the corner, and a few boxes in the corner with those spacers still on them.  Within a year I was breaking frames.
   What it comes down to..  Honestly, is what works for you.  Others may not be as inclined to Laziness while being a little more diligent in scraping frame rests etc...  did I mention how much of a pain it is to get in and around the crenelations?

[Barbarian]

Cpn  .... Please excuse my bad photography. The pics are all done with the same BROOD box. The external dimensions of a UK National brood box are .... 18 & 1/8 by 18 & 1/8 with a depth of 8 & 7/8.

Lazy ..... Thank you for your pic showing how frames can be propolized to the bodywork. It is a good example to show to beginners. With the frames I use, having 1 & 1/2 lugs means I have to avoid levering frames out by the lug ends. The stuck down frames can snap at the joint. Nowadays I use a J type hive tool in each hand and fit the hook into the angle between lug and side bar when starting the frame upwards.

[apisbees]

First Barbarian is from the UK where there are more types of hives that are considered standard. The national hive is built square so it can be placed on the hive bottom board either way.
Hoffman self spacing end bars on Langstroth's removable frame is the minim spacing of frames in the hive for the bees to raise brood. 1 3/8 = brood at 1/2" + 3/8" bees space and another 1/2" brood.  Once the bees prologize the frame ends the spacing is a little more than 1 3/8". The plastic frame spacers and the  castellations (frame spacers) are not spacing the frames any more than they are spaced in a 10 frame Langstroth. The 9 frame spacer used in the Langstroth super leaves a frame spacing of a little more than 1 5/8" or a 1/4 inch between the Hoffman end bare luges.
There is a lot of discussion and debate about what the bee space is, so whatever works for you and your bees is what you should use.

[barry42001]

LazyBkpr..stoller frame spacers aren't they? Use them on honey supers. Not in brood chambers. I have always used the 10 frames, just personal preference, always leave the extra space between frame 1 and hive wall same for frame 10.

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[LazyBkpr]

   Yep, and they were from honey supers. If I was going to do anything I would narrow the frames for brood and put 11 in, and use the 9 for the supers..    May try again in the future, but too stuck on universality at the moment

[apisbees]

I would be right with you LazyBkpr if one could find 11 frame spacers and make frames that are 1 1/8" wide the problem with 11 frames is the propolise and not having the extra room to slide the frames to make room to get the first frame out.

[LazyBkpr]

Apis.. the spacer is where I got stuck. I have the materials and ability to make a nice metal spacer, I just have not taken the time to do it. I built 20 frames with 1" top bars, shaving the ends to 3/4 so I could use a 1" wide side bar as well, yet still have the U shaped top to slide up around the top bar for good gluing and nailing ability.
   The second thing that sidelined the 11 frame brood was deciding to expand. I do not know how much work or time 50 hives will take. 36 is nowhere near overtaxing as of yet. If I find I am not overly stressed dealing with 50 I may revisit those 20 frames I built.   I am not overly sure I will like having to take spacers with me everywhere I go.. I have a hard enough time remembering a hive tool and lighter for the smoker.  I like the concept, just not prepared to put it into practice yet.
  Thanks for the clarification on the national hives. I have seen them, heard of them, but never paid as much attention as I should have.

   Barbarian..   I can see where a J type hive tool would give an advantage over using my flat hive tool and belt knife    I even bought some of the frame grips to try before giving up on them. Youd think common sense would suggest the hive tool you use, but apparently my common sense has missed a couple of classes

[apisbees]

I consider myself lucky if i show up with a hive tool. instead of spacers in every box if you don't move your hives to much you could make one that you put down from the top to space the frames

[LazyBkpr]

I consider myself lucky if i show up with a hive tool. instead of spacers in every box if you don't move your hives to much you could make one that you put down from the top to space the frames

  yes, that is actually my intent. I dont like not being able to move the frames in permanant spacers, so "plan" to build spacers to carry about...     you did just give mt the idea of making a set of spacers for each yard and LEAVING them there.. would be much harder to forget them that way.