Author Topic: make a nuc of a superseded queen? (Read 13084 times)

addame · « **on:** June 09, 2014, 12:22:46 pm »

Hi All,

One of my hives seems preparing to superside (see picture bellow).

What to do in such a case? just let the colony sypersede or sqve the old (failing) queen and make a nuc ... that will eventually go the same path (supersede)? Will such a nuc be viable?.

Woody Roberts · « **Reply #1 on:** June 09, 2014, 12:34:10 pm »

If the old queen is still laying good I would put her in a nuc for a backup.
I often see queens superseded while their still laying machines. I suspect their QMP isn't strong enough to cover the area their in.
Kept in a single box you can rob brood from them and hold them there.

riverbee · « **Reply #2 on:** June 09, 2014, 12:52:37 pm »

addame, how well is your queen laying? was there in anything in the cup or was it empty? how old is your queen?

i don't get excited about these, unless the queen is failing or some other malady. bees, some more than others, construct and tear down cells.
i am not a fan of supersedure cells, and even less emergency cells. the time lost, how well that larvae will be fed, etc.
woody has some good advice, if in fact she is being superseded, i would keep the old queen as a backup, but i think i'd also be inclined to cut the cell and requeen.

addame · « **Reply #3 on:** June 09, 2014, 03:02:38 pm »

Quote from: riverbee on June 09, 2014, 12:52:37 pm

addame, how well is your queen laying? was there in anything in the cup or was it empty? how old is your queen?

The queen is doing very well! The brood is in most cases very homogeneous and dense.

As suggested, I will make a small nuc using the the queen. When is the perfect time to form this nuc?

Thanks!

Woody Roberts · « **Reply #4 on:** June 09, 2014, 05:30:51 pm »

Sometimes they might have both queens present at the same time. For me they generally kill her about the time the cell is capped.

My guess is your window is small and closing fast.

riverbee · « **Reply #5 on:** June 09, 2014, 05:56:52 pm »

"The queen is doing very well! The brood is in most cases very homogeneous and dense."

addame, is the cup empty? if so, i would leave well enough alone. i would not move a good laying queen into a nuc, and leave that hive queenless.

i am not one to mess up the mojo of a good laying queen in a productive hive just because there is one queen cup. if i know in fact that my queen is being superseded, i will either requeen or let the supersedure run it's course. i don't like to do this because of the time involved for that queen to emerge and mate and start laying.

based on your description of the current laying queen, i would wait and not create a nuc to move that queen just now. i am thinking the cup is empty?

Woody Roberts · « **Reply #6 on:** June 09, 2014, 07:30:34 pm »

Like Riverbee if the cup is empty I wouldent do anything.

GLOCK · « **Reply #7 on:** June 10, 2014, 08:26:39 am »

I have made 3 hives with queens{all same hive} that where being superseded and they all did fine.
Just try it it's the best way to learn.
The hive I'm talking about has superseded 3 times since beginning of 2013 and all 3 times I pulled the queen and made a hive and they are doing well.
Good luck.

LazyBkpr · « **Reply #8 on:** June 10, 2014, 09:39:40 am »

If I find supersedure cells when I NEED a queen elsewhere I am certainly not above using those cells.
I do believe, that the bees have a reason for superseding. What I do not know is if their reason is valid..
Installing a package of bees, even on drawn comb means there is going to be three weeks without new bees. The population is declining so the bees take the first eggs and start supersedure cells.. Really does not mean the queen is bad.. However, if she has been laying well and they decide to supersede she may not be well mated etc.. So the circumstances dictate what I do.
I raise queens mid summer to make summer nucs and re queen a few hives.. Supersedure queens are said by some to be inferior.. Maybe. Worse than emergency queens? No. Worse than swarm queens? Yes. Those supersedure queens will start nucs and get hives on track, and if for any reason they do not appear to be doing well, I requeen them with MY queens in July. If they are going strong I dont replace them.

riverbee · « **Reply #9 on:** June 10, 2014, 11:35:21 am »

fellas, just because addame has one queen cup in a hive does not equate to supercedure. if there were royal jelly in it with developing larvae and the bees were elongating the cell, than yes, or a number of cups.

if the cup is empty, i would leave it alone and keep an eye on what is going on.

"Supersedure queens are said by some to be inferior.. Maybe. Worse than emergency queens? No. Worse than swarm queens? Yes."

swarm queens are the best, they are usually very well fed, then supercedure, last emergency queens. if one opens a fully developed swarm cell, you will find that these are literally swimming in royal jelly, compare it to opening a supercedure cell or an emergency cell. lots of variables when the bees raise their own queens, time of year, flow, the health of a colony, etc.....a good queen is a well fed queen.

apisbees · « **Reply #10 on:** June 10, 2014, 04:29:25 pm »

Until confirmed otherwise I have to agree with Riverbee. New beekeepers will see queen cups in a hive and they think queen cells. but they are not a queen cell until there is at least an egg in it. and i would not get to excited until the egg has hatched and there is a larva that is being fed. as beekeeper we can graft larva into cell cups but they will only be excepted and well fed by the bees if they decide too. As beekeepers we need to create a condition in the hive so the bees will work the cells when we give them to the cell builders. So until the bees are working at raising a larva into a queen in the cell cup, it is just a cell cup nothing to get excited about. Don't ignore them but look inside to see if there is a well fed larva, If there is, then decisions need to be made.

LazyBkpr · « **Reply #11 on:** June 10, 2014, 08:49:38 pm »

so this is just a queen cup and not a supersedure cell?

addame · « **Reply #12 on:** June 10, 2014, 10:39:27 pm »

Yesterday I checked he hive and there is no larvae on it. It is just an empty cup.
So, as some suggested, I'll wait and see what the bees will decide to do with it :-)

riverbee · « **Reply #13 on:** June 10, 2014, 11:39:27 pm »

thanks addame for your reply.....good choice on wait and see... keep us posted!

addame · « **Reply #14 on:** June 18, 2014, 10:23:51 am »

Yesterday, I visited the hive again and guess what: the cell was still empty ... and there are some swarming cells (not yet capped)!
The queen is present. However, I have difficulty to find fresh eggs. The queen is of the last year but may be the matting was not that good.

Here are few options:
- let the bees rise a new queen with the already existing queen cells
- do I have to remove the old queen to prevent swarming? If so, when?
- remove the old queen, destroy the queen cells and introduce a new queen

What do you think? Do you have other suggestions?

barry42001 · « **Reply #15 on:** June 18, 2014, 10:36:51 am »

There is a difference between active queen cells and cell cups. Are the " swarm " cells active, are there eggs or larvae. If no they are just cups bees seem to practice building them, only to tear them down and rebuild them somewhere else. Swarm season is here, and you need to be inspecting your hives every 7 to 9 days to know whats going on.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk

addame · « **Reply #16 on:** June 18, 2014, 11:15:12 am »

Some of the cells contain larvae

riverbee · « **Reply #17 on:** June 18, 2014, 11:26:27 am »

"Yesterday, I visited the hive again and guess what: the cell was still empty ... and there are some swarming cells (not yet capped)!
The queen is present. However, I have difficulty to find fresh eggs. The queen is of the last year but may be the matting was not that good."

addame, the queen stops laying when the hive is preparing to swarm, has nothing to do with mating. you need to divide this hive, before those cells are capped or make a nuc using the swarm cells present if you want the nuc to raise it's own queen.

EDIT AND ADD: (oops forgot to answer your questions)
"let the bees rise a new queen with the already existing queen cells" ~ yes you can do that, swarm cells typically make good queens.

"do I have to remove the old queen to prevent swarming? If so, when?" ~ you can and some do, i don't. NOW.

"remove the old queen, destroy the queen cells and introduce a new queen " ~ Do Not destroy the old queen if she has been laying well. Utiliize the cells in a nuc or divide for them to make a queen. or introduce a new queen to the divide.

addame · « **Reply #18 on:** June 18, 2014, 11:33:40 am »

Quote from: riverbee on June 18, 2014, 11:26:27 am

addame, the queen stops laying when the hive is preparing to swarm, has nothing to do with mating. you need to divide this hive, before those cells are capped or make a nuc using the swarm cells present if you want the nuc to raise it's own queen.

I did not know before that the queen stops laying when the hive is preparing to swarm. So, thank you riverbee for the information and also for the suggestion!

It is very pleasant to know new things in this forum and from its valuable members :-)

This afternoon, I'll make nucs (may be one or two) using the swarm cells.

Another question: how much time it will take to the queen to start laying again?

Thanks and have a nice day/evening!

brooksbeefarm · « **Reply #19 on:** June 18, 2014, 11:41:31 am »

Like riverbee said, my self i would put the queen in a nuc, make nucs with all but two queen cells and leave them in the mother hive. They won't swarm without a queen, But they may swarm with the new queen, but not likely? it's a toss of the coin.One thing for sure, you won't loose all your bees and will have more hives to worry about.

Jack