Single Deep Nuc Dawdling Along

[Jen]

A couple of weeks ago I asked about this single deep nuc that we made up towards the end of my swarming episode 6 weeks or more ago. It's surviving not thriving. I saw the queen today, eggs and larvae. One frame has a nice brood pattern the other two are a bit spotty. So that's four frames of brood. and two of nectar and pollen

It started out 5 frame nuc, but it's hanging in there with 6 frames, no more progression. Two of the frames continue to remain empty even if I put them in the middle.

Hit me with your best shot 

[tecumseh]

some queens will just not produce more than one or two frames of brood.  we use to call these dinks...hives that would maintain some small population but would never produce even a single box of bees.

some disease pathogens like nosema may produce much the same net effect.  you can sometimes test this hypothesis by feeding a bit of fumidil.

[Jen]

Hmmm you may have something there Tec ~

After my inspection yesterday afternoon I washed off the tops of the lids of my hives, this lid had three larger than average splotches on the top. I'll get some fumigil.

My hives are close together, should I treat all of the hives?

Thanks Tec, you are the honey in my tea today 

[apisbees]

Population demographics! I Know you say WHAT? Stay with me here, I will try to explain.
1 Do to the fact that this nuc was made up with a hive that had swarmed repeatedly' the age of the bee population could have been older because of the lack of new brood due to all the queenlessness in the colony. Workers have a 6 week life span give or take, so the original population that was used to make the nuc has been replaced.
2 The population in the hive will always cover more space than the brood area the bees will support. So you need 6 frames of bees to support 4 frames of brood, and other than some spotty brood in a couple of frames this is where you are. I would hazard a guess that most of the brood is capped, due to the laying and development of the brood and the hatch out cycle and the number of frames the queen has been confined to laying in because of the population.
3 The bees in the hive now are the first hatching of brood that went to replace a dieing order worker population. This population nursed  the hive and the 2nd round of brood to this point in time to 6 bee,4 brood. Over the next 12 days the (I would expect less) capped brood will emerge and the population will expand to a full super of bees or even a little more.
DON'T rule out what Tec posted above, the hive put in the stressful position of having its population of older workers dieing off as fast or faster than the new emerging workers will cause the hive to become stressed, which will cause nosema.
As Iddee would say give them another week.

[Jen]

Apis! I really don't know how you hold all this info in your head.. even other people's info, you're just kind of amazing like that.

    Okay, in your opinion after taking a look at my hive pics, should I do a fumigil treatment?

     Also, by looking at the first photo and seeing that there is 5-6 functioning frames as of today, are the other two empty frames enough to support the new hatching?

      Should I go ahead and fill this deep with up with frames/foundation?

[apisbees]

Yes add the frames or in 2 weeks it could be filled with bur comb. And yes to fumigil treatment It wont do any harm, and it could do a ton of good. I respect Tec and his vast array of knowledge. It seems that beekeepers from the time before mites, mono crops, GMO, neonicotinoids, got to understand the bees and their natural behavior. Now it seems confusing whether you are observing a bee trait or the effect of the environment the bee is in. It is so much more confusing. Or it may be just the number of times we have been stung. I mean have Kept Bees, (there is a correlation between the too).

[Jen]

Apis- "And yes to fumigil treatment It wont do any harm, and it could do a ton of good.

     And this treatment is for All of my hives?

     They are just now starting to build a little more burr comb, so I will do that, and get some fumigilin b.

Thanks a bunch Apis 

[apisbees]

With all the stress of not a laying queen it wont hurt. Left  alone they will clean it up themselves it will just take longer. You could test for it send some bees out. but all bees have it. It is whether the level is above the critical level that causes the bees to be sick.

[Jen]

Okay, I'm going for fumigilin with all 4 hives, and I'll get some more deep frame/found built and inserted tonight.

Soo it's now Tec and Apis... you both are the honey in my tea today   

[LazyBkpr]

Apis! I really don't know how you hold all this info in your head.. even other people's info, you're just kind of amazing like that.

   hehe;
   At first, I have to admit I was slightly annoyed with Apis's replies and bluntness, but have since learned to pay VERY close attention to what he says.   

[Jen]

Hey Apis    we're talkin' about you, just so you know it's not behind your back 

   Yah Scott, like I had 10 swarms right....  Apis will say "Jen, remember swarm #3 on April 14th and the process in which you hived it in a medium? that was 57 days ago, so this many bees (?) would have hatched by then, so the queen should have enough room for this many more eggs (?) Now count how many open larvae cells you have in 3 full frames (?)and you should have a 20% drone population by now.  This should tell you if you need to re-queen... 

bad word? How does he remember all these details, other peoples details?  I think it's called 'Genius'

But I have to say this! Since I came on the forum in January, I feel for me, ME! he has made an attempt to dumb down his instructions for me to understand what he is trying to say. I'm now understanding his instructions with more ease of which I really appreciate because he has SOO Very much to offer.

Apis! One day I would love to meet your in person  kisshug patpatpat

[apisbees]

Now your going to make me blush.
When the kids were young if they had a question about how something worked or science their mom  would tell them that that was a daddy question so they knew they had to come and ask me for the answer, and then they would most times add "The Readers Digest Version".
It is one thing to give the answer of say what you would do But I like to give the reason why I have come to that conclusion.
I like it when new ones post pictures with their questions as it provides so much more information. It allows us to spot things and concerns that they The newer beekeeper hasn't noticed or even realizes.
You want to be sensitive about subjects and suggesting a colonies strength is maybe not what it should be. or that the queen that good money was spent on may not be worth what they paid for her. but I believe it is better for the new beekeeper to know these facts so the problem can be fixed before the hive gets worse.
I had a 1 frame that I had pulled out of a colony last summer I thought I might have to do a trap out but their grand kids one with a bee venom allergy was coming the next week so the were did in. I posted what was happening in the hive as a leaning too. when the queen should have been mated and taking up laying, I seen drone brood in worker cells Capped, mutable eggs in cells, spotty brood, single eggs in cells in standing up in the cell bottom, and a queen that was still small, Hadn't fattened up. What was I looking at? Could be laying worker, Poor mated queen, Queen not mated, I could not say, only guess at that time. But I did gather enough information from the inspection that in a week the young brood would be capped. Show Worker or Drone. So I did what Iddee mostly suggests I gave them another week, To answer the question that were left unanswered the week before. but it provided a time line of when I had to go back in to see what the verdict was and the solution moving forward. Keep it as a colony, or shake the bees out and let them join other colonies.
Point being. The bees are in control and all we can do is assist them in their journey. May be we can translate some of what is happening in the hive and with the bees to the newer members of the beekeeping family.

[riverbee]

"The bees are in control and all we can do is assist them in their journey. May be we can translate some of what is happening in the hive and with the bees to the newer members of the beekeeping family."

very well stated apis.  and i would add sometimes we don't have all the answers.....but we sure do our best to help another young beek, and each other.

[Jen]

Hey Apis! Check it out! I posted this question one week ago 

You came back with "Population demographics! I Know you say WHAT? Stay with me here, I will try to explain."

    I filled up the hive with frames, gave them some syrup with three holes, and waited one more week. Wah Lah! the bees have stretched out to the end frames, In One Weeks Time! there is only two frames that now have one side empty. AND! there are fresh eggs on the new frames.

     I haven't used any fumigil yet because I've been checking out the bee sources around here to see if I could get it local. No Luck. But now I'm not so sure I need it, there are no new poop splats on the hive.

    And, I owe a thank you to Scott for learnin' me to feed with 3 holes instead of 6 for the pulled wax. Thanks Buddy kisshug patpatpat



new pulled wax with plenty of new eggs


fresh capped brood with a crown of capped honey

[riverbee]

looking good jen!

[LazyBkpr]

 
   That idea was Iddee all the way Jaybird, it worked so well for me I just passed it along. That hive looks like it is smokin along nicely!

[Jen]

Scott- "That idea was Iddee all the way Jaybird, it worked so well for me I just passed it along.

     Now Wait Just A Gosh Darn Minute Lazy! Iddee didn't add to this post, so the Thank You go to you! Credit goes where credit is due!
       
Scott- "That hive looks like it is smokin along nicely!

      Yep! Just like the Lady who takes care of them 

[iddee]

Iddee will add to this thread, just to say I don't get the credit either. It came from Tecumseh. He advocates the trickle feed rather than the ""all you can eat"" buffet.

[LazyBkpr]

 
   Thanks Tech!!!!