Author Topic: keeping me guessing (Read 10573 times)

Papakeith · « **on:** June 25, 2014, 12:27:23 pm »

What an interesting couple of weeks.

it seems that the packages we got this spring had a number of dud queens. Lots of supercedures. I was not immune.
Since I had a russian queen coming in that I was going to try, I decided to pull the supercedure cells and requeen with the russian.

I took the supercedure cells and a frame of honey and placed them into a queen castle. then made a nuc out of some honey and a couple of frames of brood from the now queenless colony. I placed the Russian in her cage (cork still in) in the nuc for 4+ days and then uncorked her. 1.5 days later I took a look to find that they had released her and were in the process of balling her on the bottom board of the nuc. I grabbed her and put her back in the cage but I was too late. She perished that night.

Thankfully the supercedure cell rendered a nice looking queen who had started laying. I put those two frames in the queenless hive and walked away.

Should I have done more to introduce the two frames with the new queen to the queenless hive? I kind of figured that she was showing up with her own army if there was trouble.

Jen · « **Reply #1 on:** June 25, 2014, 01:04:22 pm »

Awe Keith, I'm sorry your queen took the bullet. I think that is the number one part of beekeeping that hurts the most for me. I lost one of my purchased queens as well.

Tell me, what does it look like when the bees are balling a queen?

Papakeith · « **Reply #2 on:** June 25, 2014, 01:20:26 pm »

quite literally a ball or mass of bees with the queen at the center. I saw the mass and brushed the bees apart to see if the queen was there. She was.

Jen · « **Reply #3 on:** June 25, 2014, 01:24:25 pm »

K, good to know, thanks Keith

blueblood · « **Reply #4 on:** June 25, 2014, 01:24:47 pm »

Dang, I thought you would have been okay caging her like that. Just another, I can't figure the bees out moment, ha!

Papakeith · « **Reply #5 on:** June 25, 2014, 01:36:35 pm »

yep. I've also got one hive that swarmed with no signs of the new queen yet. I'm hoping to see something this weekend. If not I'll probably be splitting it up and giving each half a frame of eggs to work with.

apisbees · « **Reply #6 on:** June 25, 2014, 01:41:11 pm »

Was the nuc queenless?

Quote

Should I have done more to introduce the two frames with the new queen to the queenless hive? I kind of figured that she was showing up with her own army if there was trouble.

Just because the queen had failed and quite laying or slowed she still could be in the hive giving off pheromones as she wanders.

Papakeith · « **Reply #7 on:** June 25, 2014, 01:46:54 pm »

I've looked through both the hive and the nuc for another queen and see neither a queen-like presence nor any sign that she is around. I suppose the only surefire way to be sure is to evict them all and sort them through a queen excluder.

I'll check on them tonight when I get home. If the nuc hasn't made any use of the eggs it is possible that there exists a queen in the nuc.

As for the colony that I placed the queen with two frames of bees to be sure maybe I should have caged her for a day so i could gauge their reaction to her.

apisbees · « **Reply #8 on:** June 25, 2014, 02:03:57 pm »

Reread your first post and possibly bad timing could have played a part. 4 days is a long enough introduction but when you pulled the cork and then they released her. The time this took could be the 1.5 day, so disturbing the hive just as she was being released could cause the bees to do something foolish, like ball the new queen. Sometimes we never really know what happened, but can only speculate.

Bamabww · « **Reply #9 on:** June 25, 2014, 08:46:41 pm »

Bummer! From what you shared, I would have done the same thing you did. I guess what is supposed to work doesn't always work.

Jen · « **Reply #10 on:** June 25, 2014, 09:02:09 pm »

And so goes beekeeping

GLOCK · « **Reply #11 on:** June 26, 2014, 07:57:23 am »

Quote from: Jen on June 25, 2014, 01:04:22 pm

Tell me, what does it look like when the bees are balling a queen?

riverbee · « **Reply #12 on:** June 26, 2014, 11:15:40 am »

"I took the supercedure cells and a frame of honey and placed them into a queen castle. then made a nuc out of some honey and a couple of frames of brood from the now queenless colony. I placed the Russian in her cage (cork still in) in the nuc for 4+ days and then uncorked her. 1.5 days later I took a look to find that they had released her and were in the process of balling her on the bottom board of the nuc"

keith, how long did you leave the nuc queenless, or did you place the russian queen in right away? just a comment, there really is no need to keep the cork in for four days when releasing a russian queen in a non-russian hive. typically, for non russian hives, not more than 24 hours, (overnight has worked), remove the cork, and check 4 days later. like apis said disturbance of the hive 1.5 days later, but not sure what happened.

Jen · « **Reply #13 on:** June 26, 2014, 01:57:11 pm »

GLOCK- Well That Is Just Sad

Papakeith · « **Reply #14 on:** June 26, 2014, 02:24:32 pm »

Quote from: riverbee on June 26, 2014, 11:15:40 am

keith, how long did you leave the nuc queenless, or did you place the russian queen in right away? just a comment, there really is no need to keep the cork in for four days when releasing a russian queen in a non-russian hive. typically, for non russian hives, not more than 24 hours, (overnight has worked), remove the cork, and check 4 days later. like apis said disturbance of the hive 1.5 days later, but not sure what happened.

It was suggested that leaving her in there corked for a few days would help with her acceptance . So much for that

The bees I used were from the colony that I thought was queenless. I'll have to take a much closer look now.

Jen · « **Reply #15 on:** June 26, 2014, 02:33:37 pm »

When I requeened three hive in late spring, one queen was found dead on the bottom board, the other two survived. The odd thing is that when I picked her up she looked in perfect health, fat and still soft and plump. I wonder what a dead balled queen looks like? would there be damage on her? do the bees sting her to death? would her wings be torn up?

riverbee · « **Reply #16 on:** June 26, 2014, 11:29:01 pm »

"It was suggested that leaving her in there corked for a few days would help with her acceptance . So much for that
The bees I used were from the colony that I thought was queenless. I'll have to take a much closer look now."

thanks keith......leaving her corked in there for 4 days is in my HO..... extreme and unnecessary.....

interested if the nuc was queenless?

Lburou · « **Reply #17 on:** June 26, 2014, 11:57:15 pm »

Kieth, I've seen bees keeping more than one queen in a hive by balling one or more queens. Maybe you had another queen in there and the bees were giving her a chance to lay.

Last year I found a small swarm had taken over one of my queenless mating NUCs. I found one (new) queen laying, and three queens, (presumed virgin), held captive in three separate balls of bees. My guess about the situation was the bees were allowing their choice of queens to demonstrate her prowess by laying before dispatching the runners up. I saw the bees bearding for three days before looking inside the NUC, so they held the queens in a ball for those days. I rescued them, and two died within 24 hours and the last in 36.

Jen · « **Reply #18 on:** June 27, 2014, 12:26:53 am »

Interesting and curious story Lee

LazyBkpr · « **Reply #19 on:** June 27, 2014, 10:13:36 am »

Re queening an established hive, I also leave the cork in, but only for a day, then pull it and let the bees eat through the candy. If I go to pull the cork and see aggressive behavior, I leave it in and check them a couple days later. I release the queen manually when I see they have accepted her. Usually the one day cork three day release works VERY well. I have held a queen in a cage for up to six days and manually released her on day six.
I have heard that russian queens are often difficult to get accepted in italian or Carniolan hives. I have never had a ruskie queen so cant comment from direct experience.