Author Topic: Not drawing foundation  (Read 11765 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline tbonekel

  • Gold Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1053
  • Thanked: 25 times
  • Gender: Male
  • Location: Bells, Texas
Not drawing foundation
« on: July 08, 2014, 09:59:06 am »
In one hive, the queen was laying in the upper deep, then she moved back down and didn't come back up. The bees back filled thee entire deep with honey. About a week ago, I removed the middle frame and gave it to another hive. I put in a frame of foundation. After a week, the bees had not started drawing wax at all on thus frame. I'm going to give them another week, but not sure what to do after that.

Offline Jacobs

  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 149
  • Thanked: 22 times
  • Gender: Male
  • Which one do I keep?
  • Location: Greensboro, NC
Re: Not drawing foundation
« Reply #1 on: July 08, 2014, 10:31:11 am »
Here is the late George Imirie's take on drawing foundation and proper supering.
http://pinkpages.chrisbacherconsulting.com/Drawing_Foundation.html

Few people have his ability to yell at you from the written page.

Offline pistolpete

  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 786
  • Thanked: 20 times
  • Gender: Male
  • Location: Chilliwack, British Columbia
Re: Not drawing foundation
« Reply #2 on: July 08, 2014, 11:10:21 am »
i agree with everything in that article except that continuous feeding part   I  have had a nuc draw out fifty frames of foundation in one year with only one month of feeding     Some colonies are just better at it than others 
My advice: worth price charged :)

Offline Jen

  • Platinum Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10175
  • Thanked: 240 times
  • Gender: Female
  • Location: Upper California
Re: Not drawing foundation
« Reply #3 on: July 08, 2014, 11:39:02 am »
Hey Pete  :)  I think I would agree with that, one of my four hives draws comb like crazy, the other three get it done eventually.
There Is Peace In The Queendom

Offline tbonekel

  • Gold Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1053
  • Thanked: 25 times
  • Gender: Male
  • Location: Bells, Texas
Re: Not drawing foundation
« Reply #4 on: July 08, 2014, 02:40:25 pm »
Ok, I will accept that reason, but what if I placed a foundationless frame in there. My guess is that the bees might not like the space and will be forced to draw. Of course, I won't know until I do it.

Offline Jen

  • Platinum Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10175
  • Thanked: 240 times
  • Gender: Female
  • Location: Upper California
Re: Not drawing foundation
« Reply #5 on: July 08, 2014, 02:58:25 pm »
It sure wouldn't hurt anything if you tried a foundationless. That's my motto now after 4 years, 'If it can't hurt anything...'

Another thing, now that I think about it, ya might want to read the thread,

 if your feeding to draw comb use a lid with only 3 holes and not 5-6. 5-6 means your getting food to hungry bees, like in the spring, or during a dearth. 3 holes helps the worker bees with a little extra energy to pull comb.

Because of my swarming this last spring, these hives started out with small colonies. I now feed with 3 holes cause I need them to stay steady building the hive for winter
There Is Peace In The Queendom

Offline Riverrat

  • Gold Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2169
  • Thanked: 56 times
  • Location: oxford kansas
Re: Not drawing foundation
« Reply #6 on: July 08, 2014, 04:17:54 pm »
Bees usually wont draw comb unless they think they need it. Is your foundation wax or plastic.  If its plastic the bees are less likely to draw it out unless there is a heavy flow on.
"no man ever stood so tall as one that  stoops to help a child"

Forum Supporter

Offline Jen

  • Platinum Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10175
  • Thanked: 240 times
  • Gender: Female
  • Location: Upper California
Re: Not drawing foundation
« Reply #7 on: July 08, 2014, 04:22:06 pm »
Yep Riverrat! I'm still trying to transfer the plastic out of my hives. Gonna take a while
There Is Peace In The Queendom

Offline Bakersdozen

  • Global Moderator
  • Gold Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 4634
  • Thanked: 499 times
  • Gender: Female
  • Location: Olathe, Kansas
Re: Not drawing foundation
« Reply #8 on: July 08, 2014, 04:59:38 pm »
Bees usually wont draw comb unless they think they need it. Is your foundation wax or plastic.  If its plastic the bees are less likely to draw it out unless there is a heavy flow on.
I have to agree with riverrat.  Is there a slow down in the nectar flow now?

Offline tbonekel

  • Gold Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1053
  • Thanked: 25 times
  • Gender: Male
  • Location: Bells, Texas
Re: Not drawing foundation
« Reply #9 on: July 08, 2014, 06:22:08 pm »
I think my flow stopped about the second week in June. I just don't want them to be honeybound. They had some space in the super to place honey, but instead just backfilled as the brood hatched in the upper chamber. If I had an extractor, I would take a frame or two and give them back the empty but that's out. I may not even have to worry at this point. I think she has slowed down now that its the summer and if we are in a dearth, they may use some of those stores up and create their own empty comb

Offline Woody Roberts

  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 387
  • Thanked: 2 times
  • Gender: Male
  • Location: Ash Grove MO.
Re: Not drawing foundation
« Reply #10 on: July 08, 2014, 06:33:25 pm »
Ok, I will accept that reason, but what if I placed a foundationless frame in there. My guess is that the bees might not like the space and will be forced to draw. Of course, I won't know until I do it.

This is how I got started foundationless. They stalled out on foundation but when I dropped in an empty frame they went at it like coyote pups on a deer carcass.

There are lots of ways to extract a couple frames. Before I built my homemade extractor I wired a couple frames to a Sheetrock mud paddle. Messy and slow but it worked.

Offline riverbee

  • Gold Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 8924
  • Thanked: 410 times
  • Gender: Female
  • ***Forum Sponsor***
  • Location: El Paso Twp, Wisconsin
Re: Not drawing foundation
« Reply #11 on: July 08, 2014, 07:11:17 pm »
agree with riverrat as well, heavy nectar flow....and nectar flows, nectar flows, nectar flows.  and also,  bees can't draw comb and get it all done with nectar flows that don't last but a short period of time.

"I think my flow stopped about the second week in June. I just don't want them to be honeybound. They had some space in the super to place honey, but instead just backfilled as the brood hatched in the upper chamber. If I had an extractor, I would take a frame or two and give them back the empty but that's out. I may not even have to worry at this point. I think she has slowed down now that its the summer and if we are in a dearth, they may use some of those stores up and create their own empty comb"

i think you answered your own question tbone....flow stopped, and more importantly "I think she has slowed down now that its the summer and if we are in a dearth, they may use some of those stores up and create their own empty comb"

not sure what type of queen you have tbone but carnis and russians will do this, no nectar or pollen coming in....store and conserve.
bees will always store honey over the broodnest.  this does not always mean they are 'honey bound'.  the bees sometimes seem to or may get content with the size of the broodnest, (for various reasons) and the honey gets stored overhead. if you are in a dearth, it's a good thing they have this honey overhead to sustain them, otherwise you will be feeding them. they prepare.  is this a first year colony or second year? 

if i started a colony in a single deep and needed to add a second deep, i add a second deep with DRAWN COMB to the bottom, not on top.  if i only have foundation,FOUNDATION GOES ON TOP, and when those frames are drawn, it is reversed to the bottom, to circumvent the bees from filling it with honey, but sooner or later, that second deep will consist of honey stores. 

i would not place a foundationless frame in there, unless you have a good nectar flow going.

tbone, is this second deep nectar/honey or syrup? or a combination?
i keep wild things in a box..........™
if you obey the rules, you miss all the fun.....katherine hepburn
Forum Sponsor

Offline Bamabww

  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 343
  • Thanked: 4 times
  • Gender: Male
  • Location: Moulton, Alabama in the Fairfield community
Re: Not drawing foundation
« Reply #12 on: July 08, 2014, 08:54:18 pm »
Here is the late George Imirie's take on drawing foundation and proper supering.
http://pinkpages.chrisbacherconsulting.com/Drawing_Foundation.html

Few people have his ability to yell at you from the written page.
Thanks for sharing that link. And I did feel like I was being yelled at!
Wayne

Offline Woody Roberts

  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 387
  • Thanked: 2 times
  • Gender: Male
  • Location: Ash Grove MO.
Re: Not drawing foundation
« Reply #13 on: July 08, 2014, 11:14:15 pm »
I get all my extra comb drawn in the spring and as of yet haven't had a reason to try this. Lauri Miller has posted on bee source different times about how she gets extra comb drawn. I can't link from an I pad but the thread is.     I'm exhausted, sticky and dirty. Or something like that.

I have it saved on PDF if anyone wants to send me an email address I'll send it to you.

Offline barry42001

  • Gold Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1016
  • Thanked: 9 times
  • Gender: Male
  • Location: Holtcom City, Tx 7613
Re: Not drawing foundation
« Reply #14 on: July 08, 2014, 11:22:29 pm »
My Russian hybrids are not killing himself drawing out the foundation but they are still drawing it out and back filling it with honey as they go. I've pulled several frames of honey out of the second brood chamber and transferred it to the honey supers. Are then drop foundation down into this first and second brood chambers to have them draw that out for the Queen to lay eggs in both hives have 4 to 6 frames of emerging brood and another six to seven frames of various stages of larval brood
"if a man is alone in the woods, and speaks and no woman is there to hear him. is he still wrong?

Offline riverbee

  • Gold Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 8924
  • Thanked: 410 times
  • Gender: Female
  • ***Forum Sponsor***
  • Location: El Paso Twp, Wisconsin
Re: Not drawing foundation
« Reply #15 on: July 08, 2014, 11:55:05 pm »
"I get all my extra comb drawn in the spring and as of yet haven't had a reason to try this. Lauri Miller has posted on bee source different times about how she gets extra comb drawn. I can't link from an I pad but the thread is.     I'm exhausted, sticky and dirty. Or something like that.
I have it saved on PDF if anyone wants to send me an email address I'll send it to you."


woody, you can post a pdf file here if it is less than 750 KBs using the attachment options.......if it's more, it can be compressed to upload here, or linked to a file sharing like google docs.  ;)
i keep wild things in a box..........™
if you obey the rules, you miss all the fun.....katherine hepburn
Forum Sponsor

Offline Woody Roberts

  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 387
  • Thanked: 2 times
  • Gender: Male
  • Location: Ash Grove MO.
Re: Not drawing foundation
« Reply #16 on: July 09, 2014, 12:29:11 pm »
Mrs River
While I have a computer at home I'm not very literate with it. I use an I pad mostly. If you pm me your e mail I'll send it to you.

The copy I have is a year or two old, I believe Lauri has refined the process a little.
I don't have Facebook but I think she pretty active on it. Lauri Miller, Roy Washington.

Offline riverbee

  • Gold Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 8924
  • Thanked: 410 times
  • Gender: Female
  • ***Forum Sponsor***
  • Location: El Paso Twp, Wisconsin
Re: Not drawing foundation
« Reply #17 on: July 09, 2014, 01:00:40 pm »
okay woody, will do, if you'd like, i can also upload it for you. sending pm.......
i keep wild things in a box..........™
if you obey the rules, you miss all the fun.....katherine hepburn
Forum Sponsor

Offline riverbee

  • Gold Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 8924
  • Thanked: 410 times
  • Gender: Female
  • ***Forum Sponsor***
  • Location: El Paso Twp, Wisconsin
Re: Not drawing foundation
« Reply #18 on: July 09, 2014, 02:11:17 pm »
i thought it best to post the link to lauri miller's post woody is referring to, it is on another forum, members can read it here:

I'm exausted, sticky & dirty. I have a question about large hives and upcoming dearth

scroll beneath the picture to where her post starts at "I really found a cool way to split up a big hive and really make it perform."
i keep wild things in a box..........™
if you obey the rules, you miss all the fun.....katherine hepburn
Forum Sponsor

Offline Woody Roberts

  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 387
  • Thanked: 2 times
  • Gender: Male
  • Location: Ash Grove MO.
Re: Not drawing foundation
« Reply #19 on: July 09, 2014, 06:02:04 pm »
I've always felt hives have three modes.
Buildup mode
Swarm mode
Maintenance mode

What she is doing taking a hive from maintenance mode to buildup mode.
I recently read a post from her which talked about doing this. If I remember right , which is questionable she may only leave the queen with one frame of open brood. I also remember something to the effect that if you leave too many drawn frames they will just set on it and never start drawing.

As I said I don't really need this but I found it interesting.