Queen Excluder, or not?

[JanO]

Since this is my first year with bees I decided to concentrate on building up for winter survival instead of honey production.  However 2 of my 3 hives have exploded so I added a super to each of them to give them room, and if I get any honey I'll consider it a bonus.  I had an excluder on each of them but he bees refused to move up, so I pulled the excluders.  Now I'm wondering if I did the right thing.  I don't want brood in the honey supers, but I don't want them crowed either.  Maybe I should just do a split?

[Marion]

This is our first year also. I read somewhere on this blog that if you do not have wax on the foundation, new foundation, you should not use an excluder.

[iddee]

The bees will store the honey above the brood. If they don't have honey solid down through the bottom of the super, I figure they don't have enough for me to harvest. If they do, then there's no brood in the super. That's why i never use an excluder.

If you do use one, put your foundation on without an excluder, then install the excluder after they have drawn a few frames out.

[JanO]

Thanks for the input.  So it's alright that I took of the excluders,  which evidently shouldn't have been put on in the first place.    

[Perry]

Like Iddee mentioned, bees will not go through an excluder if all there is is foundation on the other side.

[riverbee]

i will just echo what iddee has already said, if we have foundation in supers to be drawn, leave the queen excluder off until that foundation is drawn. 

queen excluders are often a subject of great debate.  i use them, and i use them because i do not like brood or brood comb in my honey supers, (all drawn comb) and because i do produce cut comb honey.  having an upper entrance to your inner cover helps to give the bees access to those supers rather than taking a field trip up through the deeps and an excluder to get there.  if there is a honey barrier in place, the first super,  i will sometimes remove the excluder, it's just knowing when to use them and when not too, or whatever fits your method of beekeeping.

although i do not subscribe to all of jerry hayes writings, he does have a good article on excluders that is worth a read:

Queen Excluder or Honey Excluder?

[robo]

Turn the excluder 90 degrees so it hangs out the sides and leaves the frame ends uncovered. It allows the works to bypass the excluder on the ends, but still blocks the queen who usually comes up through the middle of the brood nest. Not 100% effective,  but much more effective than no excluder....

[tecumseh]

I use a lot of excluders and for a number of reasons.  as for the honey crop they do make taking off the crop much easier and can limit the amount of things you will need to do to counter wax moth (which is much more a problem in the south than in the north).  however an excluder will also limit the drawing of comb and this SHOULD BE your primary goal in year one... so I quite often tell new beekeepers to stow that excluder away and think about using it in year 2 and beyond. 

[pistolpete]

Jan, while a split is not out of the question, I'd advise you leave that sort of stuff for your second year.   It's quite unlikely (but not impossible) that a hive will swarm this time of year.  Let them make honey.  A lot of books tell you not to expect much honey the first year, but there are always exceptions.  My very first hive produced around 200 lbs in their first year and got me hooked.  My second year 3 hives combined barely produced that much.  Once your hives are off to the races they can draw out and fill a super every two weeks, it all depends on the flows.

[LazyBkpr]

I put an excluder on when I find I have a queen that thinks she needs to be all the way up in the supers..  Otherwise I leave them off.
   I have one hive that is two deeps for the brood chamber, and has four medium supers on top of it.. guess where the brood chamber is?  The top two mediums...   Don't ask me why..  the two deeps are now FILLED with honey. I have been UNDER supering that one hive, and they are still filling the mediums I put on UNDER the brood nest with honey...  Strangest queen I have ever had, but she seems to be happy and has about 12 frames of brood in different states of development as of today...
     Try to meet your bees in the middle, just like being married..   If you meet them in the middle you will both be happier.

[riverbee]

"Turn the excluder 90 degrees so it hangs out the sides and leaves the frame ends uncovered. It allows the works to bypass the excluder on the ends, but still blocks the queen who usually comes up through the middle of the brood nest. Not 100% effective,  but much more effective than no excluder...."

never thought of doing this robo.....thanks......what i have done though is cut notches in my wood bound queen excluders for the bees access to the honey supers, plus extra long notch in my inner covers.

[apisbees]

Turn the excluder 90 degrees so it hangs out the sides and leaves the frame ends uncovered. It allows the works to bypass the excluder on the ends, but still blocks the queen who usually comes up through the middle of the brood nest. Not 100% effective,  but much more effective than no excluder....

I have on occasion seen it fail the other way the queen makes it up but them couldn't find her way back down to relay the brood box.

[Bakersdozen]

Robo-thanks for the tip.  Never thought of that.
Apis- thanks for the input about Robo's suggestion.  More pearls of wisdom.

I have never had a problem with using queen excluders on undrawn foundation.  I can only think that is because I follow the Rule of 7.  I don't put another box (brood or super) until 7 frames are drawn in the previous box.  A good nectar flow is needed to get them to draw out super foundation.  For brood boxes you can feed 1:1 sugar water.  Don't feed with supers on.

Like Tecumseh, I don't want any brood in my supers and have never had a queen in my supers. 

[Beeracuda]

I did not use one this year.  I had only foundation to start with.  The queen stayed below and I had no brood in the supers.

[blueblood]

I won't put a honey super on without an excluder.  I tried not using them twice and what dang mess every time!  My bees drew out blank foundation with an excluder.  But, maybe my bees are just special. 

[LazyBkpr]

  My bees drew out blank foundation with an excluder.  But, maybe my bees are just special. 

    ??    Scratching head...     Was that.... sarcasm??     

[apisbees]

It has more to do with the intensity of the flow, which comes down to environment timing and the location.
It is much easier to keep bees when they are in a good location. Not all back yards or area's are good location for keeping honey bees. If it is bees for garden pollination you are after, mason bees or habitat to support wild pollinators mite be a better option for an ares. If it costs $150.00 a year to keep bees in your hive and you get no honey to show for your hard work and money, It may be better to buy local honey and support different pollinators.

[jb63]

  Good topic Jen.This is the first year I didn't use a excluder, except for one.I do have brood in the honey suppers, but it seems to be in the middle two or three.I think I'll pull those frames and make nucs.That means I need to make time to cell punch.Aarg I'm out-a time matte.

[riverbee]

well jb, a little late for my reply but, for those that don't use an exluder and find the queen laid up in your super, put the excluder on, (make sure your queen isn't up there) and the bees will take care of what brood is up there and revert it to honey storage.

like i said earlier, i don't like queens in my supers, (comb honey frames in there sometimes) so therefore i use excluders.  when i place foundation on to be drawn, i won't use one until it is drawn, and i will also feed them 1:1 syrup if need be to get them to draw it.  sometimes when that first honey super is drawn, filled and capped, i will also remove the excluder, queens won't cross the honey barrier. 

dave you are lucky, bees drawing foundation with an excluder on, had to be earlier in the season and an intense flow?  or maybe like you said your bees are special?!............

[blueblood]

I would like to think my bees are special. I've been fortunate with them drawing foundation with an excluder.  I did have one hive which I believe a smaller virgin queen slipped through or a queen entered the top entrance after mating flight. I had to take the excluder off that one.