I did it my way! (sorry Frank)

[Perry]

I have thought about starting a thread on my experiences of the last couple of years, and maybe now is the time to share a few of my thoughts.
I've been keeping bees for about 15 years now, but only in the last couple have I decided to try and eke out a bit of an income doing it.
What follows is a few of my observations along the way.

My goal a couple of years ago was to try and get to the point where I could earn roughly a thousand dollars net a month ($12,000 a year) keeping bees. Between that and a small pension I receive (thanks transit), I figured that was all I would need to be content. I had slowly been accumalating the neccessary equipment as it became available at good prices. I had my 20 frame extractor for almost 5 years before I actually used it. When something I needed became available, I picked it up, so there was never a huge sudden outlay of cash (bottling tank exempt). I have never taken advantage of any of the government programs offered, as it required going bigger than I had a mind to.
Building my own wooden ware is a huge cost saver. Do it, cause the bees sure as heck don't care how good a carpenter you are.
25 hives would be a minimum IMHO, but only if you can maximize all retail potential using all avenues.
50 hives was my goal, and I stand by that. Given that I have forgone pollination and focussed on nuc, honey, and equipment sales.

To date (and this part is for the benefit of any government revenue folks reading  ) here is an example of what is possible.

 - 60 nucs sold @ $160 each = $9,600
 - Estimated 2 ton of honey (this is a tough one to quantify as there are so many variabilities).
    Even sold wholesale at the going rate of $2.25 a pound =  $9,000
 - Sales of some basic woodenware (boxes, lids, etc. and frames/ foundation etc. bought at bulk prices) = anywhere from $2,000 to $5,000.
 - Misc. stuff, cut-outs, candle sales, stuff like that = bonus (I include my inspection gig as a bonus and will not factor that in for this purpose, as it may also be at an end).

Now, take away all the expenses, wood purchased, frames and foundation that go out the door in those nucs, gas for the truck, jars for bottling, etc. and you can see that when all is said and done, you are not going to get rich. I am close to my initial goal though. 
But, and this is huge, if you are doing something you love, and would do it anyways whether you made a buck at it or not, you're reaping the biggest windfall of all. = $Priceless!

I know that there are only a few of us here that would be considered "commercial" (that sounds so negative), and this thread is not of any value to most, but I thought it might be of some interest.
Feel free to share your thoughts. 

[iddee]

Good post.  If you can take 50 hives and make 12,000 per year, why can't a hobbyist take 5 hives and make a thousand a year. Just enough to make his/her own spending money without using household money?

[Papakeith]

excellent Perry.  It gives me hope that I can have a go at this and pull a couple grand a year from it after expenses.

[Beeracuda]

That is great Perry!  I wish I had the tools to build my woodenware.  I enjoy that, I just not very good at it with hand tools.  I have built my hive stands, a frame jig, a cart to roll supers around on and a few other thing, mostly with scrap wood.  They are definitely not things of beauty, but they work. 

We had a lot of expenses this year with buying extracting equipment, but that is a one time expense.  Even with that, I believe we are going to sell enough to cover those expenses, which I never expected to do.  Especially with all that has gone on this year.  I really didn't expect to pull 80 lbs of honey out of one of our hives that swarmed in April.  I caught it in a tree in the back yard and they have gone gangbusters ever since.

I don't foresee getting to the 50 hive mark, but 10 or 12 may be doable by next year.  That will provide a little income and plenty to keep me busy.  I don't know that I could do much more than that. 

[Perry]

First Beeracuda, let me say congrats on hitting 100 posts, you are now a "senior" member! 
Second, if you are able to cover many of your expenses in your first year you are doing very well.
Third, if you are happy and having fun doing it...............
Priceless.

[lazy shooter]

Perry this is an excellent thread for all of those folks aspiring to be commercial beekeepers.  I remember seeing several posters inquiring about how many hives it would take to earn your living from beekeeping.  Your post should be extremely valuable to these folks. 

My suggestion to you would be to market your honey to the public.  I think you can sell pints of honey (about 18 ounces) for eight dollars.  That would bring your price per pound up to about seven bucks.  That would be a huge increase, even after taking the price of the bottles and extra labor out of the equation.

[Perry]

For the hobbyist with 2 or 3 hives, it would be difficult to even break even IMHO. Most hobbys cost you money.
With a dozen hives, and a bit of a retail market I would think some comfort coin could be made for sure. 
When I first thought about making a living doing this, most local responses were anywhere from 200 to 500 hives. One fellow told me he supported his family on 200 hives making roughly $30,000.
I guess going "commercial" (here the definition is 50 plus hives) and "making a living", depends on just what kind of a living you're looking to make! 
What you need and what you want are two different things. It can be difficult for many of us to learn to be content, but that is going off topic.

[Woody Roberts]

Good post.
Your goals are not too different from mine. I could in theory retire in 7 years at 65. I would like to have 50 hives at that time.
I'm not planning on these being my living. I have that already in the works. But I see the bees giving me a project, a purpose so to speak. I also expect them to buy some chewing tobacco and a bucket of minnows on occasion.

I've had individual hives that I've taken 60+ lbs of honey and 3 nucs from in a year. While I didn't sell anything it would of had a street value of around 600.00. At the same time I might have some hives that picked up a living for themselves and maybe gave me a nuc.

It appears to me that some years could be pretty profitable while in other years breaking even could be a lofty goal.

I'm trying to grow by about 7 hives a year which is pretty easy to do. I may decide I want less than 50 or I may decide I want more. We'll see how it goes.

One thing I know. I can't see me ever not having bees as long as my health will let me. If they make me a little money then great. If not, that's ok too.

[Jen]

Perry- "What you need and what you want are two different things. It can be difficult for many of us to learn to be content

    Bingo! Nicely put Perry 

[Jen]

Woody- "But I see the bees giving me a project, a purpose so to speak.

    Hi Woody    That's my idea as well. I don't even do the math! I just like the bees and try and keep them alive. Maybe next year if I go thru another swarming episode, I may make nucs to sell. Haven't crossed that thinking bridge yet tho. I'll tell ya what.. I will be more prepared next spring tho 
   

[lazy shooter]

Perry:

I have an old pal, he's probably 82 or 83 years old, and he has been in dry land farming and cattle business all of his life on about 1200 acres.  He say, "I don't know if I make a living, but I live on what I make."  He sells about 400 bales of hay each year, sells 30 or so calves, and I would guess his income in the 40 to 50K range as an average.  I bet in the last three year drought we have been in, that he is lucky to make 20 grand a year.  He loves the work and life style and wouldn't change positions with a wall street mogul.  In the end, it's how much you enjoy your work.

I was super charged about petroleum engineering in when I graduated in 1963, and I still am.  At 75, nursing a bad knee, I have agreed to drill two wells starting in October.  If you have that passion for bees, go to it.  You will find a way to earn enough.  And, you seem to have that much love of the bees.

[Zweefer]

great post Perry!
It is nice to hear you are content with your work.
That will go farther than money ever could.

[Dunkel]

Perry that's about what I am shooting for.  I can retire in 7 years and figure if I can maintain about 50 hives and cows I can make up the difference and get to sleep until I wake up.  I am content with teaching but I do love to farm.  Nothing like low paying noble occupations   I get to live on the farm that my family arrive at 173 years ago and raise my two sons, seventh generation. 

I changed from sixth grade math to middle school science about the time I got into fooling with bees.  My students have learned a lot through keeping up with the bees and so have I.  I usually do two small units on bees each year. One in the fall and one in the spring.  The fall we end with a little extraction and the spring ends with hive assembly.  Boy do I have some funky looking supers    On the bright side I have managed to grow my customer base as my hives have grown A lot of those kids now have families of their own.  My wife gets them in high school and they always want updates on the bees.

[LazyBkpr]

Well said Perry.
   Because you said you could handle 50 hives, I decided that was my goal as well, to get to 50.. I have 45 at this moment, a pretty big jump this year, but I shouldnt have to jump as far next year..
   Building 50 hives cost me about 2 grand. Buying 50 hives would cost over 10 grand. So there is considerable savings in making your own equipment. I find it is a fantastic thing to do when the wind is whipping the snow around.
   Someone already mentioned selling bottled honey as opposed to bulk buyers, there is no reason you cannot do both. Keep enough to bottle and sell, and within a year or three you will have a good idea how much you need to set aside, and that will increase the profit margin from the honey. Making candles OR just selling the raw refined wax will also increase profit.  BOTH making candles and selling bottled honey require more work that selling it bulk, so some compromise is needed for time and effort involved..   I only pulled 8 gallons of honey this year. My wife gave away about half of it, and we had a rather heated discussion about that..  Giving away some is fine, family, and friends, but she was taking it to work and handing it out, and that wont happen again. If it does, I will go to her store and set a table out front with a sign that says FREE CANDLES and see how happy she is about that.  Anyhow...
   Nucs, Queens, Established hives, Honey, Wax, Removals..  In setting up a long range plan and considering 50 hives I figured a gross income of around 30K if I worked at it a bit.
   Switching treatments to OAV saves quite a bit of money on chemicals, as long as it continues to work as well in the future as it has the last couple of years, I will never need to pay for expensive chemicals.. and that will increase profit.
   Keeping outyards as close as possible to reduce fuel costs is another one I am working on..  I may be overdoing that a bit setting up the outyards at two, three and four miles away, but it seems to be working OK so far.
   Rebuilding the old extractor, buying used equipment, etc etc..   Everything adds up, or down depending on your perspective.
   Your post has made me think that my initial estimates were not far off. From what I have seen this year I am pretty confident it is quite possible.

  I originally figured about 20 hives for production, ten to fifteen for resources, and about 15 nucs for overwintering, replacing loss and selling each spring.  My considerations have changed dramatically.. 
   30 to 40 production hives, and about 25 to 30 nucs.. using the resources from the nucs for more nucs, IF I can find the secrets to overwintering them here on the prairie.
      Also..  The VP of our club was talking about selling out his queen rearing operation when I saw him this spring, and when I called about a month ago to see if he had any queens he said no, and didn't plan to make any more this year.. so the door is being opened. Yes I told him I wanted the opportunity to buy him out if he chose to stand down.
   Other options in the works include bee pasture to support more hives, here at the home yard and at my fathers place where I have an outyard.  Is it possible to make 40 to 50K a year with less than 100 hives?  I don't know yet..  And that much work and effort may push me across the line of comfort and make something I enjoy into a chore/work I no longer enjoy.

   So.. How many of the hives you have, do you consider production hives?
       4000 lbs of honey would be 80 lbs of honey from every hive.. I assume you get more on some and less on others, but is 80 lbs the average for your area?

  You Overwintered nucs last winter, could you share the intricate details? Double nucs? On top of production hives? Two story or three?  Deeps I assume? etc...

   Are you using the overwintered nucs to sell, or to replace loss? Or both?

   Are you making up nucs in the spring to sell?


   I think I know a couple of the answers, but am trying to put the pieces of the puzzle together all in one place.  Sorry about the long windedness.. but I have just been rolling on all summer, and this thread brought everything back into focus as far as original goals.

[apisbees]

The 250 hive mark is where you can accomplish most the work your self and only recruit family or hire temp help a few times a year and pay them as casual farm labor. Go bigger and you are training the help to become beekeepers, so you will want enough hives to generate the work to keep them employed all year. From 20 to 100 hives I would consider this a serious hobby, It will make money but wont cover all the bills, buy you a new truck when the old one wares out, pay for a trip to the XLIV 2015 Apimondia International Apicultural Congress in Daejeon South Korea.

[Bakersdozen]

 Boy do I have some funky looking supers     My wife gets them in high school and they always want updates on the bees.

I love it!  Do you let the students paint them too?

[lazy shooter]

To the other Lazy:

You appear to have a very good, level headed approach to beekeeping.  I find no fault in any of your arguments.  I think Apis is giving you a good heads up on your limits of a one man operation.  In reading his post, I would assume you need to stay under 250 hives or go way above that number.  I think they call that the "law of diminishing returns" for good reason.

You also said something important, in that, you don't want to get so far into beekeeping that it commands your life.  It's fun to drive, but being driven is not nearly so much fun.

My three year vision sees you earning 50 grand a year with 100 hives, and all your friends wondering why you have an eternal smile of your face.

Go Get'im

[LazyBkpr]

  I hope so Shooter!!
   I think 250 would push me too far, but 100 might be viable. After dealing with 45 I still have time I could put into more, but my back is usually burning pretty good. Taking a break after 15 to 20 seems to help, and thats part of the benefit.. If I need to stop for a bit I can.
   Another aspect I have noticed is that I worry less.. with 4 hives, ten hives and 17 hives I was constantly concerned about problems and losses. I am much less distraught when i find a hive that has problems now. I have the ability and resources to replace it or fix it, or combine it! So having 45 hives has actually made the enjoyment of beekeeping greater.
   I always felt....   How to explain this?
   OK, you know when you eat Ice cream, and you finish the bowl.. scraping the last spoonfull out... it ALWAYS seems like you were one or two spoonfulls short of being satisfied?
   Having a dozen hives, going through them, and realizing you are finished inspecting/dealing with them always felt pretty much the same...  Just another couple hives would have been better..   I still have that feeling, but it is not as prevalent.. I think there will come a point at 70? 100? that the feeling is gone and I will be happy to be through them all, yet still look forward to doing it all again.  Thats the point/place I am looking for. 

[iddee]

That point/place came to me at 67.....................And I don't mean hives.      :'(

[blueblood]

Good post Perry! My goal is 50 also. Hoping to use bees to supplement my pension. I can retire as early as 2020.  Like  Iddee said, I use my current profits to buy fun stuff apart from using family budget.