Author Topic: Box flipping in an August Drought?  (Read 6814 times)

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Gypsi

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Box flipping in an August Drought?
« on: August 28, 2014, 11:37:29 am »
I checkerboarded once, don't think I will ever do it again. Deadly results.

But it's hot out, and I haven't seen the inside of my big hive's deep since I requeened in April
Flip a box in late August? I think the bottom box is empty, top has drawn comb, both are deeps on one hive. I stole their super and gave it to the cutout bees I'm going out to check on.

Next hive has deep with 5 drawn frames on bottom, fairly full medium super with brood and stores. Figured I'd put the top on the bottom and see if I can get them to draw with sugarwater and whatever fall flow we get.

worried over whether I got the queen out of the valve box with her bees, going to the bee yard this morning.

Gypsi

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Re: Box flipping in an August Drought?
« Reply #1 on: August 28, 2014, 01:15:18 pm »
I still didn't see the bottom deep on the big hive. Beautiful golden queen was in the top box 3rd frame laying eggs. Really golden, her legs and head too, a nice amber shade. Hope the photo comes out. She provided all the eggs and brood to get the 2nd hive going, and the box of honey and wax workers for the cutout bees I did Monday. No way I'm risking rolling her just to see what is going on downstairs. queens like to hide on the bottom of the frame (although she didn't while I was fumbling for my camera) anyway, didn't want to set the box on her getting into the bottom. It will wait.

I did switch the box positions on the smaller hive. medium on top only had 3 undrawn frames, bottom had 5, I think the queen was up there somewhere, (she was on Sunday) but I didn't see her today. I went through the top box, lots of uncapped brood, didn't see any eggs, stores going in.  All that was happening in the bottom box was honey and pollen storage. I have the entrance reducer set to a 2 bee width, makes it hard to get the pollen in but robbing is frequent and deadly in drought and this is a small hive with just barely enough bees to cover the drawn frames. Granted the ones now getting nectar have worker brood due to hatch out. Interestingly no drone brood at all, but the queen is young and mated in late April early May.  Going to have to get syrup to them more often if I want wax drawn this time of year. Have been feeding a jar a week to encourage some foraging and not set myself up for a swarm problem. The smaller hive definitely needs fed more often, and/or I may have to reduce box size going into winter or do a combine.

Gypsi

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Re: Box flipping in an August Drought?
« Reply #2 on: August 28, 2014, 02:13:54 pm »
I checked on the cutout bees, lifted the top box off to be sure everyone was alive in the bottom, and they are. They still don't have an entrance/exit and I do have a queen excluder between the bottom box and the sbb, to be sure her ladyship doesn't take off. If I had not gotten these bees out of a valve box when I did, they would have been sprayed.  Their defender is moving, and she let them throw off 4 swarms into the neighborhood without calling a beekeeper, at least one was definitely killed. It didn't occur to her that letting bees do what they do naturally would get them killed.

The bees are healthy but were starving, no capped stores, just a little nectar and pollen on the 7 frames of comb I took out of the underground valve box, no brood, no eggs, did not see the queen. First removal was before noon, and I left a nucleus that they piled onto and into and I picked up at dusk, and dumped in with the main group on their frames.  I put a medium super of honeystores and wax workers from my biggest hive on top, with a newspaper in between and a couple of holes in the paper, and initially had a screened spacer on top under a migratory cover with a feed jar, so those that didnt and couldn't get in the box could smell the other bees and get a snack as they waited for the 3 day bee memory of home to lapse.  I will open the entrance tonight and make it a 2 bee opening, lest the 60 lbs of honey on top tempt my other 2 hives into a robbery and murder scenario. 

signing off to drink and cooloff...

Gypsi

Offline riverbee

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Re: Box flipping in an August Drought?
« Reply #3 on: August 28, 2014, 07:41:57 pm »
i have never practiced 'checkerboarding' gypsi so can't comment on this. to your question about flipping the deep in august:

"I haven't seen the inside of my big hive's deep since I requeened in April.......Flip a box in late August? I think the bottom box is empty, top has drawn comb, both are deeps on one hive. I stole their super and gave it to the cutout bees.
"I still didn't see the bottom deep on the big hive. Beautiful golden queen was in the top box 3rd frame laying eggs. Really golden, her legs and head too, a nice amber shade. Hope the photo comes out. She provided all the eggs and brood to get the 2nd hive going, and the box of honey and wax workers for the cutout bees I did Monday. No way I'm risking rolling her just to see what is going on downstairs. queens like to hide on the bottom of the frame (although she didn't while I was fumbling for my camera) anyway, didn't want to set the box on her getting into the bottom. It will wait."


gypsi, my thought is you need to find out what's in that bottom deep.  if it's empty, i would flip and feed, feed,  feed. some questions:

1. are both deeps full of drawn comb?
2. how is the queens laying pattern in the 2nd deep?
3. are there stores in the 2nd deep?
4. are you feeding this hive?

for me to flip deeps at this time of year would not be a good choice, especially if that bottom deep is empty, which would go on the top, even with feed on, i have a limited window now to get the box filled.  i would be looking at alternatives, for example,  placing a deep on top with some honey frames in it, or a medium with honey frames in it, or a medium for them to fill.

basically, my decision would be based on how well the queen is doing and do i have a population of bees i can overwinter with available resources, or do i need to combine them with another hive. your location is much different then mine.

anyone else like to chime in? 
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Offline Garden Hive

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Re: Box flipping in an August Drought?
« Reply #4 on: August 28, 2014, 08:47:29 pm »
Don't know if I can keep up with all that you have going on. I get confused easily and not embarrassed to admit it! :laugh:

I don't like the idea of swapping boxes. Removal of un-needed is appropriate. It seems like you have too much unoccupied space going on. Except in the rescue hive with, from what I get ALL YOUR STORES on top of it.

With drought and dearth now and vacant space,,,,  if you can feed..feed..feed.
You will have to see it you have a queen in the rescue hive. You said, no eggs no brood. Not a good sign even if soon after hiving them. I've not kept up with how you got them.
But you may just be feeding a dying colony your only stores. If there is no queen, then combine them with your weakest. Your temps out there and them locked away for so long.....they are in much need of water. If no natural close by, provide a source.

The others I would consider moving frames together in a single box and allowing them to fill one before having partials stacked. Don't know if that is compatible with what you have for frames...deeps and mediums. I think you had some deeps drawn but stacked with many undrawn.

If my shot at it missed....let us know some more info. ;D Tim

Gypsi

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Re: Box flipping in an August Drought?
« Reply #5 on: August 28, 2014, 11:49:49 pm »
I think the bottom deep on the big hive is all drawn comb, all 10 frames.  It has been months since I got to it. I removed and extracted honey from the top 2 boxes on this hive in late June, and put the drawn comb back on.  I have 2 months until first frost. I can buy a summer queen now (couldn't in late June or July) so if I find there is not a queen in the cutout hive, I can buy a mated if slightly hot queen. 

I don't consider anything "all my stores" until it is at least late September. I prefer NOT to build the hives up too much just now or they tend to swarm in mid october and a mid or late october swarm will cost me the hive. I also work long days at that time so if I lose a swarm then I will not be at home to catch it.

The smaller hive is putting up honey on the outer frames of the medium box which I put on the bottom, the queen had been laying in the center of that box, nice solid brood with honey in the outer corners.  The reason the smaller hive had 5 drawn frames on the bottom is those frames came out of the freezer about the time I took down a hive that had lost most of its bees in a swarm, leaving a virgin queen. I took the hive down, moved the surplus bees in a medium super to the top of the big (and only) remaining hive, and went out the door to run my business, it was June, I may or may not have posted this, the swarm happened while I was in Nevada I think. A week later a clump of bees was still sitting next to the big hive. After taking away whatever they were hiding UNDER I found a queen. A mated queen. So I had the 5 frames of food that I"d removed from the freezer when I shut it down for summer, and I put them in a deep, and I put this half cup or cup of bees with the queen in the deep on those frames.  And I took the medium box of food and brood off the big hive, with newspaper from the combine still half way attached, and I stuck it on the deep with 5 frames a cup of bees and a queen. And I put a lid on it, stuck a jar of food on top, reduced the entrance to 2 bees width (I use screened bottom boards for ventiliation) and I went off to work and spent the next month supporting my aunt and cousins by phone as they tried to untangle my uncle's hospital situation.  Given its humble beginnings, and that my purchased queen took off and this young queen is her newly mated daughter, the small hive has done rather well.

 I may need to clarify: I am a hobbyist beekeeper. I got 30 lbs of honey at the end of June, I am not selling any, I sold one hive that I started with a queen I bought last summer, built the hive up over the winter and this spring, sold it early in June of this year. I will never be more than a hobbyist beekeeper unless I move. And I am ok with that. I can't raise queens, insufficient DNA mix and what there is is a bit hot. I am ok with that.

Courtesy of having to build hives up at this time of year before I know the feed feed feed mantra, and I know bees will draw out comb if they have a good waxworker population of bees the right age, and feed going into the box.

I just did not want to blindly feed, so I've held it down to subsistence for the last couple of months until I had time to check the hives. When I was last in the big hive, that I stole the medium super from, they had 2/3 refilled the deep box which is fully drawn out after I extracted it. So they did not starve while I was not feeding. Best news is no drone brood at all. The only box I didn't get into was the bottom box on the double deep hive, she might have some drone brood and queen cells hidden down there. But for today, at 98 degrees, I had enough to do and she is my best queen. so I opted not to risk her checking.  I will get to it.

If I combined hives at this time of year and overcrowded the bees I suspect I would set myself up for a late season swarm.  If I reduce real estate too far, particularly on the double deep, she is prolific enough I am worried about a swarm. I would prefer not to divide the hive this close to winter with minimal flow but I really don't want to lose half of it and have the other half left queenless.  I've had late season swarms 9/26 to 10/26 both years that I had bees that late in the year. Something about our seasons

Offline riverbee

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Re: Box flipping in an August Drought?
« Reply #6 on: August 29, 2014, 12:37:11 am »
"I think the bottom deep on the big hive is all drawn comb, all 10 frames.  It has been months since I got to it."

okay gypsi. you still need to know what's in there.  i say that because, if we don't know, can't really give good suggestions or advice as to whether or not to flip the deeps...or if we don't know how your queen is doing in the top box or what's in there?
kind of long distance armchair winging it here........ :D

you said she was prolific and you wanted to avoid a late season swarm and did not want to divide. well, if she's in the top box and packed in there with bees......with no place to go, when the bottom deep is empty?  might want to flip them around?  not sure gypsi, just armchair winging it here!.... :)
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Offline barry42001

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Re: Box flipping in an August Drought?
« Reply #7 on: August 29, 2014, 12:47:39 am »
Yes by all means you do have to see what's going on in your hive.  Even if both deeps are drawn out, if the upper brood chamber is stuff full of honey and the queen is laying eggs in an ever restricted brood pattern    while the bottom of the brood chamber has almost nothing in it then rotating the brood chambers makes sense. I have never heard of be swarming that late in the season you must really have very mild falls and winters.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2014, 01:54:33 am by barry42001 »
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Gypsi

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Re: Box flipping in an August Drought?
« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2014, 12:49:16 am »
Thank you Riverbee.  If I find empty comb that comb is going on top.  A honey ceiling is always an invitation for a swarm at this time of year, queen feels she has nowhere to lay and off they go. Which is why I had no hesitation grabbing that medium honey ceiling and giving it to the starving cutout bees, along with enough waxworkers that will mature to help defend the hive while I assess whether there is a queen. If there is she isn't going out the front door short of slimmning down, I stuck a good metal queen excluder over the sbb. 

It is prime robbing season down here. Small openings, no spilled honey, no invitation to trouble and I am about to go out and spray yellow jacket nests.

Our fall will start at the end of september when temps don't hit 90 degrees in the daytime anymore. Winter is about a month later.

Offline Perry

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Re: Box flipping in an August Drought?
« Reply #9 on: August 29, 2014, 06:49:06 am »
This thread is a perfect example of why keeping is so location dependant information wise. Swarming in October!  :o
Any advice I could offer could possibly lead to disaster.
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Offline Garden Hive

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Re: Box flipping in an August Drought?
« Reply #10 on: August 29, 2014, 07:00:29 am »
Worried about swarming this late in the yr is nothing that I have ever had to deal with.

I understand your concerns with not being able to tend to them as often as some. With you providing more explination, now I feel you at least have a plan. Sometimes you just have to go with your gut. ;)

Offline riverbee

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Re: Box flipping in an August Drought?
« Reply #11 on: August 29, 2014, 12:36:10 pm »
what perry said, very true!

"This thread is a perfect example of why keeping is so location dependant information wise."

not to mention that i learned something from you about beekeeping in your location.  sounds like you have plan gypsi, keep us posted on what you did/didn't do.
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Gypsi

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Re: Box flipping in an August Drought?
« Reply #12 on: August 29, 2014, 01:15:14 pm »
Well after dark last night, I removed the plug from the entrance to the cutout hive. They spent 3 days cooped up with the young bees and honey super, just to be sure they would forget where "home" was and reorient.  The neighborhood they came from hates them, the gal let 4 swarms take off and hang in trees, no one called a beekeeper, they all got sprayed as far as I know, and the neighbors were walking by as I was taking this cutout of a below ground sprinkler system valve box in the front yard, 15 feet from the street.

I have looked in the apiary this morning, and no one was entering or leaving the cutout hive, but at 11:30 they had a pretty good clip of traffic going in and out the small front door. We got about half an inch of rain overnight, which I am truly grateful for. Hopefully I kept them locked up long enough they will stay here.

My 2 hives are coming and going and having a party gathering pollen and hitting the pond for water. I am picking up 4 year old granddaughter in a couple of hours so I will not be looking in any hive until at least Monday, probably Tuesday. we will have some intermittent cloudcover and ornery bees for the next couple of days anyway, which is why I was in such a hurry yesterday.

My first task when I do look is to check on the cutout hive I think, to see if there is a queen and if she is laying. Then when I open my double deep if I need a frame of eggs or brood I will be able to get it while I am looking.

Ya'll have a good weekend.
Gypsi

Offline riverbee

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Re: Box flipping in an August Drought?
« Reply #13 on: August 29, 2014, 03:09:48 pm »
"Ya'll have a good weekend."

you too gypsi, and enjoy your grandaughter and your weekend!
i keep wild things in a box..........™
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Gypsi

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Offline barry42001

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Re: Box flipping in an August Drought?
« Reply #15 on: August 30, 2014, 01:42:45 am »
Beautiful girl
"if a man is alone in the woods, and speaks and no woman is there to hear him. is he still wrong?

Offline riverbee

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Re: Box flipping in an August Drought?
« Reply #16 on: August 30, 2014, 11:31:57 am »
she is a beauty gypsi, thanks for the pic!
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Offline lazy shooter

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Re: Box flipping in an August Drought?
« Reply #17 on: August 30, 2014, 06:27:28 pm »
That's the biggest queen bee I ever saw.  How much does she weigh?  :)

Offline Zweefer

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Re: Box flipping in an August Drought?
« Reply #18 on: August 31, 2014, 08:57:58 am »
Great photo!
Keeping of bees is like the direction of sunbeams.
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Gypsi

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Re: Box flipping in an August Drought?
« Reply #19 on: August 31, 2014, 05:21:40 pm »
I have no idea what she weighs, but I went through her hive today, stuck kids in front of "Wishbone" recordings. Bottom box of the golden lady's hive is being backfilled with pollen beebread and a little honey. For now I left it on the bottom.  Her brood pattern was pretty much a solid fill in the top box, so I stole 2 frames of uncapped brood for the cutout hive. Which I went through this morning, as I could see dead bees on the bottom screen (below the queen excluder)

I watched bees pour back into that hive Friday evening. I am guessing there was fighting on the bottom screen below the excluder. I was gone all day yesterday, I dumped out a good 3/4 of a cup of bees off the bottom screen when I removed the queen excluder today. 

 I am not sure if we got the queen of the cutout bees. Went back through the cutout hive this morning found an occupied queen cell and some uncapped brood that was not there on Friday BUT could have been a laying worker attempt. They also appear to have had a hive war with returning workers yesterday while I was gone, Removed queen excluder today, put the medium with honeystores and my young bees that didn't die returning on the bottom, stuck remaining cutout bees in their deep on top with a couple of frames of uncapped brood not over 2 to 3 days old. If they have laying worker the whole thing will go south, if they have a queen they now have more bees and some brood to reinforce the hive, if they do not have a queen they can make one better from an egg, but they can manage with 2 day old brood. Also went through my big hive and gave them another empty medium to fill up and shuffled frames so they don't miss this brood too much

I had some medium frames in the bottom deep of the big hive that were filled with honey and extended to deep length. I pulled 3, trimmed to medium length, and added them to a medium box which I put on TOP of the big hive, so both honey gatherers and the queen have a place to go.