Queenless in September...

[CpnObvious]

When the inspector checked out my hive #2 on August 28, they had clearly superseded and the new queen was a drone-layer.  They were in the process of superseding her.  The inspector destroyed the queen cups and queen cells they were working on and put me in contact with a guy to get a new queen.  I picked up the new queen that Thursday night.  Friday, Aug 29th,  afternoon I put her (in her cage) into the hive and killed the existing queen.  On Monday, September 1st, I took the cork out of the candy end of the cage.

Also, because of the inspectors recommendations, on Friday Aug 29th I took two frames of brood and bees and put them into Hive #2 to help build up worker count.

Today, we went into the hive to see how things are going...  except for the frames of brood that already existed (or that I put in) all drawn frames are nectar-bound.  I probably jumped the gun... but before I realized there was no queen present I axed the queen cells, despite the little voice telling me to wait.

So Hive #2 is now queenless and has no queens in the process of being made, which means I'm now looking at what, not having a queen until the beginning of October?  At this point I'm not sure what to do.  Should I let them build on up and hope that she mates well and they get winter bees going, buy ANOTHER new queen, or take both brood boxes and combine one each with the other 2 hives using newspaper?

Thank you!

[iddee]

That far north, I would combine.

[Riverrat]

 This time of the year even if the queen gets mated they are going to have a hard time getting numbers up to go into winter.  I would combine and split in the spring.

[LazyBkpr]

Agreed with Iddee and RR..
   I had a queen supered last month..  checked her hive Friday and there is larvae etc.. so THAT hive is good.. If her mating had failed, I would have combined/strengthened needy hives and split in the spring to refill the equipment..

[riverbee]

combine as all have said, they will never make it and will be doomed.  good luck!

axing queen cells imho is never a good decision, chances are as you found, a hive will be left queenless.  with that said capn, even with queen cells this time of year, a combine in north country would be in order for me.  too much time to produce a queen, mate and like riverrat said, too late to lay winter bees to build up population, and then wonder if that queen is viable. buying another queen?  you will be setting them back again if she is not accepted, and besides she has no time to build population. bees are slowing down and gearing for winter, not builiding up like spring,  there is no time.

[CpnObvious]

I feared you'd all suggest that... but it makes sense.  Thank you for the advice (as always).

I guess this leads me to a few other questions, then...

1)  How many layers of newspaper do I put between the supers?
2)  My other 2 hives are already pretty strong, though one is a little stronger / more populous than the other...  Just give the super with more to the one with a slightly lesser count?
3)  Both my other hives already have 18-19 drawn deep frames that they are working quite well at stocking with syrup / nectar / honey.  By adding another deep super to each they will be at 3...  Do I leave them with that so I have less to worry about as far as feeding for the winter?
4)  There is the equivalent of at least 1 full frame (both sides) of pollen in one of the deeps I'd be combining...  Should I just include that and let them deal with it, or replace the frame with virgin foundation?

[riverbee]

#1~ 1 layer of newspaper

#2 ~ give to the weakest hive or divide equally

#3 ~ 3rd deep super, explain?  sorry if i missed capn, are you talking about adding a 3rd deep with undrawn foundation?

#4 ~ include it and do not replace with foundation.  bees need the pollen.

[pistolpete]

bees are very unlikely to draw out anything at this time of year.  Even a single frame of foundation in a large hive is quite likely to go ignored.   

For the newspaper combine, I'd recommend using some masking tape to hold the paper in place.  It's really annoying to have a little gust of wind move your paper just as you're setting the top box on.

A hive up here in the great white north needs about 12 to 14 full frames to make it through to spring, so sounds like you're in good shape.

[CpnObvious]

No, or little (just whatever hasn't been drawn), virgin foundation will be in any of the deeps.  If I combine this week, each of the other 2 hives would have a total of 3 deeps... giving them a lot more nectar/syrup/honey.  I'll divi up the frames to be as equal as possible.  Should I leave them at 3 deeps through the winter?  When I put the newspaper and the third super on, do I trap the bees in there, or let them have an inner cover with a notch?  One of the hives is right next to the one being distributed... will that cause a problem?

[Riverrat]

Once combined I would take the frames with stores and swap out any undrawn frames in the bottom 2 deeps and remove the 3rd.

[riverbee]

capn, what riverrat said....

[CpnObvious]

Doing that would probably leave me with a total of about 14-16 (I'm guessing) frames with nectar/syrup/some honey in them.  What would I do with those?  That's a lot of freezer space for the winter.

[iddee]

Seal them in plastic bags, freeze for a week, then store in basement or garage until needed.

[Riverrat]

YOu could leave it on the hive but remember dont give them to much area to defend. Its the time of year robbing is at its peak.

[riverbee]

do you have extra deeps capn?
if you do, i store deeps with frames of honey in them in an outbuilding. i have and make covers that fit on the top and bottom. they do just fine that way. some folks don't have this option, but if you have an unheated garage or  a cooler area, this would also work.  in the spring you can put this extra deep on top for them, rather than syrup, and allow them to move up into it. then a little later when they are in the top two boxes, and the weather is warmer, you can remove the bottom deep.

you could do as iddee said, i would heed what riverrat said about the area to defend and robbing occurring.  also, i would add that i would not overwinter a hive in northern cold country in 3 deeps unless i had a very strong colony, and i would want to see bees covering 10 to 15 frames or more.