Author Topic: Pre Fall Inspection On Hive #4 possible empty deep to remove? (Read 9255 times)

Jen · « **on:** October 01, 2014, 02:54:26 pm »

I haven't been in this hive for about a month. I want to get into it tomorrow Thursday, and do a last inspection. I know things could be different since last inspection. Last inspection showed a small amount of capped brood on the center frame in the deep. The center medium full of capped brood. Top medium full of honey/ruby syrup.

Our nights are getting down to about 40 degrees.

What I want to know is: If the deep is now empty of any brood, larvae, eggs, should I remove this deep for this year, bringing the two mediums down to the bench top for winter?

Or: if there is still a small amount of brood, larvae, eggs in the deep.. should I leave the hive configuration alone for the winter?

medium - honey
medium - capped brood
Deep - empty except for a small amount of brood in center, has been this way all summer.

efmesch · « **Reply #1 on:** October 01, 2014, 04:16:57 pm »

Jen asks: " If the deep is now empty of any brood, larvae, eggs, should I remove this deep for this year, bringing the two mediums down to the bench top for winter? "
That's an easy question---if it's empty, definitely remove it.

Then she asks: " if there is still a small amount of brood, larvae, eggs in the deep.. should I leave the hive configuration alone for the winter?"

That's a tougher question to answer. Depending on how much brood etc. are in the deep, you might just leave it alone. You face one of the didfficulties of working with mixed sized frames since you can't move the deep frames up. In an extreme situation you MIGHT consider rearranging by moving the medium frames down, replacing the empty deep frames and removing the medium super. But that is really a tough call. Again, depending on how much is in the deep, you might just prefer to leave things as they are.

It's a call you can only make when you've opened the hive and see what you are facing.

Perry · « **Reply #2 on:** October 01, 2014, 04:30:42 pm »

I don't know your area, but you may be surprised at what you find after a month. If there has been a decent flow, you may find that middle medium has been backfilled with nectar and the queen and brood forced down into the bottom deep, a typical fall movement for the bees.
Do they have fall in California?

Jen · « **Reply #3 on:** October 01, 2014, 04:51:41 pm »

Lol Yep we usually have a nice long Fall season, AND we had a long late summer flow. That would be so incredibly Cool if I find that tomorrow! Crossing fingers... Thanks Perry

riverbee · « **Reply #4 on:** October 01, 2014, 08:55:03 pm »

jen, i would want to know what's in that deep, and the two mediums before answering your question. if this hive hasn't been checked in a month, like perry and ef said, really difficult to answer your question without some description/certainty of what's in those boxes.....

Jen · « **Reply #5 on:** October 01, 2014, 08:58:42 pm »

Okee Doke, for sure I will take pics, I'm anxious to see what is happening in this hive cause we had a nice long late summer flo. What I'm really hoping is that there will be no more ruby honey

Jen · « **Reply #6 on:** October 04, 2014, 02:23:55 am »

Inspected this hive yesterday. This is the hive that Perry suggested that maybe the bees took the queen down to fill up the deep. No bad news really, just isn't any different than this summer. What I think this hive has is a 'dink', a term I learned from Tec, I think meaning a queen that doesn't work past a certain point. In this hives case she hasn't gone past one medium hive box all summer long. She is one of my swarmy queens.

Saw the queen, haven't seen her in a long time, she's a shy one

medium
medium
Deep

TOP MEDIUM: First frame all ruby honey Boooooooooooooo!

Then all the rest of the frames looked like this Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay!

MIDDLE MEDIUM: First two frames like this, then additional frames have plenty of capped brood, tiny larvae and medium size larvae. Queen still going strong.

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BOTTOM DEEP: No eggs, larvae, capped brood at all. Mostly the bees are storing whatever they find in this deep.
[url=http://postimg.cc/image/z5kz6d91r/]

I'm thinking to leave this hive alone for another 2-3 weeks or closer to November. Then maybe kick out the deep?

What say you?

pistolpete · « **Reply #7 on:** October 04, 2014, 02:39:14 am »

I don't see the point of getting rid of the deep. There's 20 or 30 pounds of honey in there that could well come in handy in the spring. A winter cluster does not heat the hive to a significant degree, so the extra volume is not a concern. Some of the foundation is getting quite travel stained and will not likely result in perfectly drawn frames, but you never know, in a good spring flow they might finish them up anyway.

Jen · « **Reply #8 on:** October 04, 2014, 12:26:24 pm »

Good Morning Pete

travel stained?... hmm... haven't heard that term before...

You mean the very dark foundation?

Oh! and by the way, I figured that because this middle medium is full of bees and brood and appear to be strong and healthy... and the top medium is chauk full of honey, I helped myself to two frames of honey. So if a 10 frame medium is full of honey that would be 60 pounds... so if I took two frames out, that leaves approx 40 pounds of honey for them, and hopefully that will be enough for another predicted long winter... right?

iddee · « **Reply #9 on:** October 04, 2014, 01:19:02 pm »

No, Jen, a 60 lb. medium is 30 lb. tare and 30 lb. net. You took 6 lbs. honey and left 24 lb.

Jen · « **Reply #10 on:** October 04, 2014, 02:58:00 pm »

Hi Iddee ~ Oh boy, there is that bee math. Okay, so is there is enough honey in this super to feed this medium of bees this winter?

See, I'm not a calculative person, I will find visual tools. If I have a medium brood box full of capped brood, larvae, eggs... how many frames of honey do I need to get them thru the winter ?

iddee · « **Reply #11 on:** October 04, 2014, 03:56:25 pm »

Upper Calif. isn't too specific a spot.

Willows or Orland, 40 lb. Dunsmuir or Susanville, 100 lb. or more.

Jen · « **Reply #12 on:** October 04, 2014, 04:07:29 pm »

One hundred pounds for one medium of bees? That would be 3 honey supers on one medium brood box....

May I ask where you obtained this information?

iddee · « **Reply #13 on:** October 04, 2014, 04:15:44 pm »

No, for one hive of bees to winter on.

barry42001 · « **Reply #14 on:** October 04, 2014, 08:44:04 pm »

Jen that would be 3 full medium supers( 90 pounds ) per hive if you reside in Dunsmuir or Susanville or area's of similar winter climatic conditions. And might still be short if conditions are too rough. The medium of bees means nothing, it's the actual colony strength and how much of the colony strength is of older bees going into winter cluster. If your trying to overwinter a 10 pound ball of bees that are younger, expect more honey consumption then one cluster same size but larger proportion of older bees that will die off in larger numbers.
And bear in mind, it's not feeding the adult that will really deplete the stores, but the rapid expansion of the brood rearing with spring...when most bees that are going to starve...will starve, after surviving the winter.

pistolpete · « **Reply #15 on:** October 04, 2014, 10:03:09 pm »

I do a honey frame count around this time of year to determine winter stores. I run all deeps. A full deep honey frame is about 6 lbs of honey. So I add up all the full ones, and estimate the partials. Typically I will have the top deep full of honey, and the bottom deep about 1/3 full of partials. This gives me around 80 lbs of honey to winter on, which is enough to get them through five months of zero nectar. Typically they will have a couple of frames left over at the end of march. A longer winter does not always mean more stores are needed. Around here spring comes hard and fast, so there is not a really long time from brood rearing ramp up to spring flows.

With your medium frames you can do the same math, just assume that each full frame = 3lbs. honey. looking at you pictures, I'd guess you have about 25 to 30 lbs in the top medium, about 15 lbs in the middle medium,
and another 15 to 20 in the deep. that's pretty close to your target weight.

The good news is that if you have a light hive, you can feed them in the spring when it warms up. I know nothing about your winters, but would guess that 60 Lbs of honey would be a safe number to shoot for, regardless of the colony strength.

Jen · « **Reply #16 on:** October 04, 2014, 10:43:44 pm »

Pete- "and another 15 to 20 in the deep.

I hadn't counted the capped hummer syrup in the deep because I didn't figure the bees to 'go down' to get food for the cluster above, I think I remember that they will chimney up. But then, it occured to me that as the days warm up a bit they will probably go down to the deep and use up that food and then then queen will start laying... hopefully $:-\$

riverbee · « **Reply #17 on:** October 04, 2014, 11:00:06 pm »

jen, thanks for the great pix, nice looking queen, some queens/hives do better than others, but she sure is laying a good pattern from that one pic.

about your deep, i would remove it. move it out, store it, the bees will not move down during winter months to get any feed out of there on these frames. come spring pop it back on top, there's feed in there. the bees/queen will move up, she will lay and the bees will work that deep with a honey flow on or syrup on and fill it out to the point that you can reverse it and get it back on the bottom where you want it. they don't need that extra empty space underneath. if you are not comfortable with that, pull it out, and get it on top for them to move up into. being on the bottom does no good.
my HO, just move it out until spring.....

Gypsi · « **Reply #18 on:** October 05, 2014, 01:07:39 am »

And where are those pictures and that hive inspection report?

Jen · « **Reply #19 on:** October 05, 2014, 01:14:36 am »

Hi Gypsi, those pics and report are on the thread "Pre Fall Inspection On Hive #4'. Just finished that inspection yesterday.