Oh No! Cause For Alarm! Queen Is Outside The Hive!!!

[Gypsi]

At this time of year if they have been running a 2 queen hive they were throwing her out. I've had it happen. And I put her back in and put her back in when what I should have done was put her and that half a cup of attendants in a nuc. Which if you find her outside, alive and attended tomorrow, is what I suggest you do.  It is a bit cooler where you are, but she may already be mated AND there may be another mated queen in that hive. It happens

In which case you will have eggs and/or brood.  And who knows, maybe a nuc to build up over the winter. I've done it.  (but I have Texas bees and they are Tough critters.

[Jen]

Gypsi- "Which if you find her outside, alive and attended tomorrow, is what I suggest you do.

    I like this bit of advice, it's either this or a combine, time will tell. And by the way, this beek is a tough critter 

[Gypsi]

The nuc will hopefully guarantee only one queen per hive.  There is always a risk when queens fight, that both will die.

[Jen]

As well, it has crossed my mind late this summer that the hive next to this one could be combined with this wandering queen hive, neither one has produced much. One has half a medium full of bees, and the other has half a deep full of bees. Both queens are 'dinks'. So, then in the spring, I could buy a new marked queen and replace the dinks.

    See, this kind of problem solving is going to prevent dementia for me... that's the up side 

[Gypsi]

I have stacked smaller hives on top of each other with a double layer screen between them for warmth in winter and while I decided which queen to keep, and just seen how they do. There are a lot of options. First thing is clip the wandering queen and check the hive for another one I think

[Jen]

Gypsi- "There are a lot of options. First thing is clip the wandering queen and check the hive for another one I think

       Good idea, the only thing is, when I open up the hive to find the wandering queen, and clip her, then find another queen, how do I know which one is the wandering queen? Or, does it really matter? Leave both queens in and like Iddee said, let the bees do the dirty work...

        On of the scenerios in my head:

        It has occured to me in my junior knowledge of beekeeping that this may be a small swarm from one of the neighboring hives. Maybe they lifted out and landed on top of next door hive?
        I have been reading posts of several who are finding very small swarms this late in the season.

        I think I'll first go with Iddee's suggestion and wait one week, check for queen and/or eggs, if there aren't any signs, combine. In the meantime watch for and events like this again, then the plans will change.


     

[Jen]

Update ~ Uh Oh! dead queen on the ground in front of the hive, a lucky break to find her.



    Beek Sherlock Jen working the clues, working the clues....

    Clue process of elimination:
     
    I do know at this point that she is not from one of my two hives that have marked queens. Which narrows down my sharp hunting instincts for answers.
    Just came back from the hive, lifted the lid and there is no roar, a definate clue that there may still be a queen residing in this hive.
    Adjusted plan for now... I'll do a hive check tomorrow to see if there is a queen inside. If I find her, I'll check the hive next door and see if there is a queen in there.
    If there is a queen in both colonies... Then I have no clue where yesterdays wandering queen came from. Time will tell 
     
   

[Scott Derrick]

I would look in one week. No eggs and no queen cells, combine.

I agree with Iddee. Combine if now eggs. Do it soon though and make sure you have plenty of stores.

[Jen]

Hi Scott    If I do the combine I will have a half full deep of bees, and a half full medium of bee. Then I would have almost two full mediums of honey to go on top of that.

[riverbee]

"Update ~ Uh Oh! dead queen on the ground in front of the hive, a lucky break to find her....Adjusted plan for now... I'll do a hive check tomorrow to see if there is a queen inside. If I find her, I'll check the hive next door and see if there is a queen in there.  If there is a queen in both colonies... Then I have no clue where yesterdays wandering queen came from. Time will tell  "

jen, my guess is when you go into this hive, you will most likely find the queen that was wandering around outside the hive that you put back in; your photograph of her in the clip from post #1.

this queen is a young queen, look at her abdomen.  my  guess is the bees decided to supersede her, your original queen, the queen you found wandering outside the hive. this might explain why she was outside the hive on the top edge of the lid.  this young queen hatched out and she was on a mission to find the reigning queen.  either the bees decided who reigns, or your original queen did (the queen on the lid). so the bees drag the 'loser' of the match out the door.  this is the same hive you said you hadn't checked in a month or so and the same hive with the deep question?


 

[Gypsi]

sounds like it was a mother / daughter

[riverbee]

yes, and i forgot to add to look for another one....or two or......

[Jen]

Riv- "this is the same hive you said you hadn't checked in a month or so and the same hive with the deep question?

     Yep it is...

[Jen]

Riv, that sounds like a decent scenario. Now... if in fact the new queen is in there, and the original queen is dead. How is she going to mate properly this time of year when it's time to wind it down, and there are so few drones left?

Maybe this would be in the bee biology book

And, hubby wants to know is it possible for this new queen to wait until spring to mate for next years production?

There is still capped brood and larva in this hive ~

[Gypsi]

Good point Riverbee  Often more than one queen cell, but usually the first one to hatch runs around and stings the rest, doesn't she?

[Jen]

Good question Gypsi   

Iddee, River and Gypsi:  I'll have to wait until Thurs to get into this hive. What should my plan of action be?

   I know to check for a queen...

   If I see loaded queen cells? should I leave them alone?

   If I find more than one queen, I should leave them to duke it out.. right?

    I know I can combine, but would another solution be to buy another mated queen to see this hive thru the winter?

[Gypsi]

With my vast 3 years experience and having lost hives to virgin queens in fall if I found multiple queens in my hive I would clip the virgins and set them up in some kind of small nuc until spring with a cluster of bees, maybe a medium nuc or queen castle inside an insulated deep to keep them warm, or even in a shed or greenhouse.  Virgins can't get mated in time to lay before the drones are kicked out here after well, about now. except it was 99 here yesterday.  Not a chance i would take. So I would queen clip the virgins and fix em up some little houses and leave her ladyship in charge and scold those bees and tell them they are risking their winter livelihood.  If you do lose the old queen, combine them.

[iddee]

Gypsi, an over wintered virgin queen can never mate. They have a window of a few weeks after birth to mate, otherwise they never do

[Gypsi]

Thank you Iddee.  I knew not to leave her in the hive, didn't know she was useless. Then again that few week window, how long is it, because I think these occasionally work in Texas, and we have shorter winters

[iddee]

Not real sure, but thinking less than 30 days.