Mountain Camp Rim Feeder

[Jen]

Robo, did you glue it together? what kind of glue? 

[iddee]

I've taken many hives out of warm houses after they made it through the winter in good shape. Never heard of them littering the snow in the winter.

[Lburou]

I made a variation of the mountain camp method, for emergency feeding.  Using a 2X4 and some coarse wire fencing, I made a rim, incorporated the wire, mixed sugar and water, poured the sugar and water mix into the mold made by the rim.  Took a long time to set up, but it did finally dry.  You can add a pollen patty when desired in the center. 

Note the kerf in the top edge, this allows moisture to accumulate in the sugar and facilitate air circulation too.  Pictures show the view from the top side and bottom side.   That is about 10 pounds of sugar. 

[Jen]

Um Lee    I looked up the word kerf?  scratching head

[Lburou]

I'm drawing your attention to the notch in the edge of that rim Jen, calling it a kerf. 

Examples Word Origin
noun
1.  a cut or incision made by a saw or the like in a piece of wood.
2.
3.  the act of cutting or carving.

Don't scratch your head too much Jen, you'll end up like me. 

[Jen]

Thank you for the explaination Lee     

[robo]

Robo, that was my thought years ago, but some old time beekeepers told me not to wrap or insulate the hives in our area that it can give the bees a false impression that it's warm enough out side to forage? That they will fly out in the snow or to cold of a temp. to make it back? so i've never wrapped, but have put foam insulation under the top cover and lined hay bales up on there north side for wind break. What has been your experience with this?? Jack

Jack,   I am sort of an unorthodox beekeeper.  I decided a long time ago to study the habits of survival feral colonies and not base my beekeeping methods on general beekeeping principles.   The biggest difference I find, which I often get beaten up about, is ventilation.    I have never seen a feral colony that has not tried to seal up the nest cavity except for a small entrance.  This is totally contradictory to the "beekeeper's law" of always providing upper ventilation to eliminate moisture.  The main problem I have with by providing ventilation, is you are also allowing all the heat to escape.  Bees are very adaptive and will also do the best they can to survive.  You often hear that "cold doesn't kill bees,  moisture does".   It kind of reminds me of the other saying "falling out of a plane doesn't kill you,  it is the sudden stop that does".   My point being,  figure out another way to deal with moisture that doesn't steal all the heat.   We don't leave a window open in our house in the winter to deal with moisture, why would we do it to the bees.    And yes I have often heard the argument that Langstroth hive and trees have very different insulation properties so you can't compare.   Well all I can say is I have observed many feral in the wall of abandon structures,  which is much more representative to a Langstroth than a tree,  and the bees behavior does not change.

So to answer your question.  I have had great success using polystyrene hives with an insulated shim and cover with only a bottom entrance and no top ventilation.  I'm in an area where 2 deeps of honey is the standard for winter.  I can winter in 1 polystyrene deep and still have honey to spare.   Last winter was our coldest sustained winter in many many years.   I had 1 deep hives that still had 3-4 frames of honey left.

No issues with bees thinking in is warm enough to fly.  Ferals that are snug and warm in trees aren't "fooled" into flying.  Likewise, anyone with an observation hive can testify that the bees don't attempt to fly when it is too cold. 

[iddee]

 

[LazyBkpr]

heheh..    Yes I use mine year round. I flip them to shallow side (3/8) for summer, and the deep side (2") for winter.  No scratching Jen!   

   This is what I have always understood;
  In reading about hive temperatures I have found that the inside temps of the hive are the same as outside the hive.  The bees DO NOT warm up the inside of the hive.
   Temp readings indicated that there was less than a tenth of a degree difference between inside and outside hive temps on a cloudy day. On a sunny day, the wrapped hive was three to five degrees warmer inside than outside. When outside temps change, it took two to four hours for the temps inside the hive to reflect this change.   As I understood it, the insulated hive took longer to change temperature. Up to 12 hours to reflect a 5 degree temperature change, which I think would be a good thing in the fall, but not such a good thing in the winter or summer.  The insulation prevented solar gain. When it was -20 it took longer to GET that cold in the hive, but once it did it also took longer to warm back up..
    So, in having that understanding I have never been concerned with heat loss, only with FOOD supply and keeping the bees DRY..  All of what I have just posted was read, or heard? some time ago, years.. so if something about that has changed I would like to hear it.
    Maybe research that shows that bees can keep a hive insulated with XXX insulation at a constant temperature of 35 degrees, when it is -20 and the wind is blowing 50 mph for instance?   I would really hate for them to have a 30 degree day and become active inside the hive because its a balmy 50 degrees in there..
  What I do has worked well in my area since before I was born, but that does not mean I am unwilling to adopt a new method if proven better!!

[LazyBkpr]

 Robo posted while I was typing...   A couple things to ask questions about here...

   Robo;
    I have never seen a feral colony that has not tried to seal up the nest cavity except for a small entrance.  This is totally contradictory to the "beekeeper's law" of always providing upper ventilation to eliminate moisture.
//

   I agree 100% that it lets heat out, but if that heat is not enough to make a difference inside the hive, if it dissipates anyhow then why does it matter? 
   So lets go with the analogy of the house/hive for a moment;
   Houses are usually heated in the winter, hives are not..   However, the Attic of a house can be compared to a hive, because there is SOME heat there.. NOT enough to keep the attic warm, but there is heat..  Every attic IS ventilated in one way or another. If it were not, the moisture would destroy the house.   Taking that one step further, that heat in an attic is a dryer heat than the warmth produced by fifty thousand bees breathing and vibrating muscles..

   I have no intention of beating you up over ventilation Robo.. what you are doing is obviously working or your bees would all have died.  So, I guess, what I am saying, is that what I am doing works as well, but what I want to know, is WHICH way is better? AND How would you implement your method on a commercial scale?
     Always a pleasure to argue with someone who doesnt feel as if they were personally threatened!   

[robo]

   This is what I have always understood;
  In reading about hive temperatures I have found that the inside temps of the hive are the same as outside the hive.  The bees DO NOT warm up the inside of the hive.
   Temp readings indicated that there was less than a tenth of a degree difference between inside and outside hive temps on a cloudy day. On a sunny day, the wrapped hive was three to five degrees warmer inside than outside. When outside temps change, it took two to four hours for the temps inside the hive to reflect this change.   As I understood it, the insulated hive took longer to change temperature. Up to 12 hours to reflect a 5 degree temperature change, which I think would be a good thing in the fall, but not such a good thing in the winter or summer.  The insulation prevented solar gain. When it was -20 it took longer to GET that cold in the hive, but once it did it also took longer to warm back up..
    So, in having that understanding I have never been concerned with heat loss, only with FOOD supply and keeping the bees DRY..  All of what I have just posted was read, or heard? some time ago, years.. so if something about that has changed I would like to hear it.
    Maybe research that shows that bees can keep a hive insulated with XXX insulation at a constant temperature of 35 degrees, when it is -20 and the wind is blowing 50 mph for instance?   I would really hate for them to have a 30 degree day and become active inside the hive because its a balmy 50 degrees in there..
  What I do has worked well in my area since before I was born, but that does not mean I am unwilling to adopt a new method if proven better!!

Scott,  I have often heard the same points.   Not looking to get into a debate,  but just want to throw some stuff out for folks to think about and decide for themselves.

I have found that the inside temps of the hive are the same as outside the hive.  The bees DO NOT warm up the inside of the hive.

I think that on the extreme side that may be true.   If you go stand in a huge empty warehouse, your body heat is not going to affect the temperature inside the building.  If you stand in a small shed,  I think that might change.  Get 4 buddies in the shed with you and I think you would have a hard argument that the shed does not get "warmer".    This does bring up another point that is not so obvious in my methods that I believe plays an important part.   I use 1 deep which means most of the box is full of bees.  I do occasionally run 2 deeps on really big colonies,  but in general,  the small the hive is, the better the bees can manage the space.

If bees don't warm up the inside of the hive,  why do they beard and fan entrances in the summer when temps are below 90F?   If you have ever tried a bee beard you would have a great appreciation of the amount of heat bees give off.

Temp readings indicated that there was less than a tenth of a degree difference between inside and outside hive temps on a cloudy day. On a sunny day, the wrapped hive was three to five degrees warmer inside than outside. When outside temps change, it took two to four hours for the temps inside the hive to reflect this change.   As I understood it, the insulated hive took longer to change temperature.
These are Langstroth hives and I assume with ventilation.  I would like to see the data for feral colonies that have sealed themselves up. I am not surprised by the results.  Sort of like leaving your front door open and an upstairs window and claiming the temp inside the house is not much different than the outside temperature.  This also assumes that heat only comes from the outside, which I have issue with from point 1. 

Maybe research that shows that bees can keep a hive insulated with XXX insulation at a constant temperature of 35 degrees, when it is -20 and the wind is blowing 50 mph for instance?   I would really hate for them to have a 30 degree day and become active inside the hive because its a balmy 50 degrees in there.
All I can say is my bees never go into a tight cluster.  Although I have never opened them up at -20,   I have peeked in at 0.   I had the same concern about them being "too" active and consuming too much honey.  But I have experienced just the opposite.   When they retain heat, they don't eat as much.   Just like heating oil with your house.

[Lburou]

Last winter, I left two double deep hives with no vent at the top.  The bottom of the inner cover and the cover just above the inner cover hole was covered with a dense, grey, mold this spring.  Can't clean it off, even with clorox.  Not going to do that again. 

Honey is about 18% water, that water has to go somewhere when the bees consume the honey.  When the air is humid, the moisture will condense  on a surface that is colder than the warm humid air produced by the cluster.  You have seen this on your glass of ice water or tea.  The wet drops form as the humid air contacts the cold glass. 

Keeping bees in Wyoming and Alaska, I always had a small hole to vent moisture from the hive.  Here in north Texas, we have warm periods throughout the winter and I thought it would be less of a problem here.  It is.  At this location, with the winter we had last year, the bees didn't get 'rained on' by condensation from the inner cover.  At the same time, I did note that the mold could have been prevented by a little ventilation the way my other hives were wintered, and with no mold.  I think this is another instance of beekeeping being local.  And it varies in one locale with the weather.

As a passing remark, my bees beard less in the hot weather when there is a vent at the top of the hive, even a small one.  Sometimes they do propolize them to the size they want however. We must be careful of wholesale openings in the hives because of a large number of moths everywhere.  They infest the 1520 acres of irrigated pecan trees across the street.

JMO, always happy to read the opinions and practices of others too.     

[robo]

   I agree 100% that it lets heat out, but if that heat is not enough to make a difference inside the hive, if it dissipates anyhow then why does it matter? 

That's my point.  We as beekeepers say it doesn't matter.  I've proven to myself that it CAN matter if we let it. Bees are remarkable insects that adapt as best they can to any situation to survive.    There is a big difference between survive and thrive.

   So lets go with the analogy of the house/hive for a moment;
   Houses are usually heated in the winter, hives are not..

We disagree here.  What is the difference between you burning oil in a furnace and "heater bees" burning honey?   How does a cluster stay warm and not allow heat to escape into the surrounding?   Not according to second law of thermodynamics.

   However, the Attic of a house can be compared to a hive, because there is SOME heat there.. NOT enough to keep the attic warm, but there is heat..  Every attic IS ventilated in one way or another. If it were not, the moisture would destroy the house.   Taking that one step further, that heat in an attic is a dryer heat than the warmth produced by fifty thousand bees breathing and vibrating muscles..

There also seems to be a big misconception of moisture.    Yes moisture can cause problems in certain cases.   Water is also required to sustain life.  Where do bees get their water during the winter?  It is all about controlling moisture without adversely causing other issues.  Bees need water,  even in winter.  Think you can survive the winter on just honey and granulated sugar?

   I have no intention of beating you up over ventilation Robo.. what you are doing is obviously working or your bees would all have died.  So, I guess, what I am saying, is that what I am doing works as well, but what I want to know, is WHICH way is better?

Likewise,  I jsut want people to make their own educated decisions and not just blindly follow generations of "beekeeing lore".   How many things have changed in the medical field over the last 100 years proving that what we thought was correct was actually harming us?

AND How would you implement your method on a commercial scale?

It is just a matter of equipment.   Polystyrene hives are the norm in many European countries.      There is actually a Canadian who keeps 1000s of nucs in poly each winter.

[robo]

Last winter, I left two double deep hives with no vent at the top.  The bottom of the inner cover and the cover just above the inner cover hole was covered with a dense, grey, mold this spring.  Can't clean it off, even with clorox.  Not going to do that again. 

It all comes down to how the moisture is managed.  Venting is the easiest for the beekeeper.

I think this is another instance of beekeeping being local.  And it varies in one locale with the weather.

Exactly,  I can only speak for my climate here in the north east.    Funny thing is I have never heard a disclaimer about location with the "cold doesn't kill bees, moisture does".   

Now back to my regularly scheduled job..... :'(

[robo]

Robo, did you glue it together? what kind of glue? 

I have tried many glues and 3M 78 works the best

[LazyBkpr]

Food for thought..  Thanks! 

Ventilation during clustering... There are two schools of thought on this matter one is to provide for a through draught of air and the other is to close off all forms of ventilation at the top of a hive (as indeed the bees do in the wild) and insulate the top cover.
   http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/ventilation.html


  Seems Mr. Cushman also agreed with you Robo...   I am glad he had the forethought to put the info up on a website so his knowledge was not lost.

   My concern, is that here the entrances get PACKED with snow, which turns to ice overnight..  Sometimes it takes a couple of 45 degree days before it considers melting. The upper entrance is often the only way the bees have in or out..  Will two days before they can get out matter?
   Probably not, unless that 45 degree day is only 1 day and its back to 30 degrees.. they missed the one chance they had at a cleansing flight. That happens more often than not here..

   Poly hives are out of the question. Not even a maybe option..   The coons would tear them apart to get at the honey.. (    Should have got a picture of the 38 LB Coon I caught in my live trap a few days ago..  Scratch marks on the hives so I set the live trap with cat food... )  I lost half a dozen feral hives in bee trees and buildings to coons this fall, I cant offer them up my production hives..   Maybe a few hives made out of 2x material to try for next year?  I really don't see 2x material making a difference in the internal temperature.. the foam on top will keep the condensation from dripping on the bees, but will the rest of the moisture be too much?

   I will tape the upper entrances of 5 hives here at the home yard, and leave them taped for the winter. I can walk out to them and yank the tape off if we get a day that will be warm enough for a cleansing flight..   Nervous about doing that..  I hesitate to deviate from what I know works...

[ledifni]

Don't scratch your head too much Jen, you'll end up like me. 

Is that how that happens?  Learn something new every day 

[Jen]

So your foam is like apolstery foam, not styrofoam but squishy?