Author Topic: Prepping hive for winter (Read 6118 times)

ledifni · « **on:** October 24, 2014, 12:39:18 pm »

Hi all

Questions for the group from a new beek. As some of you know, I'm nursing a weak trapped-out hive through fall and trying to help them survive the winter. If they make it through winter, they should do great next spring since their queen is very productive and healthy.

Right now the hive stack (in an 8-frame hive) is as follows, from top to bottom:
- 1.5gallon top feeder (this one specifically: http://www.brushymountainbeefarm.com/8-Frame-Hive-Top-Feeder-w_Floats/productinfo/262/);
- deep hive body with 6 full frames of brood and honey and 2 partially-drawn frames; and
- medium super full of mostly undrawn foundation as of last weekend

I'm not sure how much progress they've made drawing out the foundation in the last two top frames and the 8 bottom frames. I will probably try to do a full inspection next weekend to check on the brood and find out how much stored syrup they have. However, I'm thinking they most likely will not finish filling those frames before first freeze, which usually happens late November/early December around here, even if I keep feeding 2:1 syrup until then.

So. Should I try to consolidate this hive before it gets too cold? Maybe move all the best frames into the deep and remove the medium? I don't want them to have too much dead space to keep warm, but I also don't want to weaken them by taking out frames they've worked. Obviously I would have to do it soon so I don't chill them in cold weather.

Any thoughts? Is there anything in particular I should look for next weekend so this question will be easier to answer?

LazyBkpr · « **Reply #1 on:** October 24, 2014, 03:45:16 pm »

If it was mine, i would put the drawn frames into nuc boxes, two high and winter them in that. Whatver your choice, do not leave undrawn foundation in the hive, they cannot cluster with it and it becomes a barrier. It is better to leave the empty space than to have an undrawn frame in the way...
Your location may make a difference. I do not know how cold it gets where you are. Here, I would NUC them and put sugar on the top bars.

Perry · « **Reply #2 on:** October 24, 2014, 04:00:36 pm »

Or, you could just leave it as is. The undrawn frames are at the bottom of your stack so the bees should not end up there anyway. Bees don't heat an area, they heat the cluster itself. I would remove the feeder when they stop taking the feed, and if you feel they are still light, make up a fondant patty and slap it on top of your inner cover hole.

ledifni · « **Reply #3 on:** October 24, 2014, 05:06:16 pm »

Well, I can't put them in two nucs since I only have one nuc, which actually isn't even mine

Could get another I guess.

I'm in North Texas and it doesn't get particularly cold here...if it gets below 30F or so we think the world is ending. I think the coldest I can remember it getting in the past ten years is about 12 degrees, and that was just one day in the middle of a fairly warm week.

I do plan to make them some fondant, and yes, I'll take off the top feeder when I do. I'm going to wait till next weekend to do anything though. They're predicting a nice warm week (80+ in the afternoon) so I'll leave them alone to do their thing during the warm weather. And for fondant, I should wait until it gets close to freezing right?

riverbee · « **Reply #4 on:** October 24, 2014, 09:02:19 pm »

first, my question is led, how many frames of bees do you have? solid on the frames and rolling over on the top?

a strong colony, a not so strong colony or a weak colony, this will help you make a decision on whether to combine or not, and will help us help you with deciding what you need to do.

i am not one to overwinter in nucs. in texas, with a low temp at 30 degrees, probably not a problem. if you have undrawn frames, as perry said leave them in the bottom or place the undrawn frames towards the outside on the bottom deep, if they are not already there. bees don't overwinter very well on undrawn frames, as scott said, so as they move up you want all drawn frames in the top. you don't want any empty frames or undrawn frames above them, whether it be a deep or a medium super, they don't cluster well and won't survive on undrawn frames, and you will lose them. they need drawn comb. with that said, honey stores or syrup must be in these upper frames. i am unfamiliar with what you need in texas for stores, perhaps other texas keeps, gypsi, tec, lee, will wander in on this thread and can tell you what you need.

i think you need to determine the strength of this colony, stores, drawn vs undrawn comb to best figure out how to overwinter them......

LazyBkpr · « **Reply #5 on:** October 24, 2014, 09:08:24 pm »

Well said Mrs. River.

Jen · « **Reply #6 on:** October 24, 2014, 09:25:11 pm »

Okay now Led, don't hesitate to ask and ask and ask questions from these forum people, they are soo patient with all of us... except Jack of course... but that's a whole other subject ~rolling eyes~

Just so you know, I signed up in January and these people helped my get thru A Lot of stuff with my hives. I owe them so much

And by the way, I didn't just make my 4,000 post by being shy... eh hem

ledifni · « **Reply #7 on:** October 25, 2014, 10:35:56 am »

Well, last time I did a complete inspection (about two weeks ago) those 6 filled frames were pretty solidly covered in bees on the sides and top. I can get some up-to-date info next time I inspect. In any case, a combine is not a possibility since I have only one hive. They will have to live or die on their own (with as much help as I can give them of course

)

Speaking of which, how often is too often? I've opened the hive every weekend for the past few weeks, but the last two times I did not do a full inspection -- the first time was to add the bottom medium, the second to add the feeder, but I only checked a few frames. So maybe this weekend or the next I'll do a full inspection and see what I find. Or should I leave them alone for a few weeks and let them make some progress without being disturbed?

ledifni · « **Reply #8 on:** October 25, 2014, 10:40:03 am »

Well Jen, I'm working on my 4000 posts, let's see how fast I can get there

I do appreciate all the excellent advice I've gotten around here, and if my ladies make it through the winter it will be largely due to the wonderful people here

So thank you all.

brooksbeefarm · « **Reply #9 on:** October 25, 2014, 12:24:13 pm »

I don't know nothing about the climate where your at in Texas, except it's winters are warmer than Mo. What i have done in similar situations is remove the bottom (empty box) super, it's just something they will have to protect and serves no purpose fore winter. If i have 6 frames of bees with brood and honey and winter moving in, i would leave the feeder on, if i understand right you still have a month of forage weather, if there is something the bees like better they will work it, if not they have the syrup.With the honey they have in the brood chamber and the 2 partially drawn frames, they should ? draw them out and fill them with pollen and honey.With the queen running out of laying room, she should shut down laying and when the brood hatches out the workers should? or will back fill with honey. The work force you see now will die out and the new hatch will be the winter bees. Jack
PS. Notice i said Should

But the only thing left in the hive are Females, so your guess is as good as Mine.

Jack

ledifni · « **Reply #10 on:** October 25, 2014, 12:44:28 pm »

Well I went ahead and did a full inspection. I figured, it's been a few weeks since I did anything except pop the top for a couple of minutes so it's about time I saw what they're really up to.

Long and short of it:

- 6 frames covered in bees. Same as the last inspection, but they're a good deal more crowded on those frames now. Solid mass of bees, I had to move them aside to see any comb.
- 2 frames with all ages of brood, but one of those frames is honey on one side and brood on the other. I'm not sure if that's enough brood, but I'm going to trust my queen's judgment. Speaking of which, I saw Her Ladyship on one of said frames and she's healthy and active

- The two partially-drawn mediums in the bottom box are now fully drawn, filled with honey, capped. Proud of my ladies

- Two more partially-drawn mediums (were new foundation a few weeks ago) are about half-drawn and starting to get filled with honey.
- The two outer deep frames in the top haven't been touched. At all. And there were maybe four or five bees on each of them. Wonder why they aren't doing anything with them?
- I didn't see *any* drones. Nor drone cells. Is it possible they've already kicked out the boys?
- Added four fresh beetle sheets. I didn't see many beetles but there are still a few here and there.
- They aren't taking much syrup. I put in a gallon and a half a week ago, and they've lowered the level about a centimeter, if that. However, they're obviously getting their honey from somewhere, so I'm thinking they're finding a good flow somewhere. Which is good, I'd rather they had real honey than syrup anyway.

brooksbeefarm · « **Reply #11 on:** October 25, 2014, 12:58:06 pm »

Hummm, in that case i would move the super from the bottom and put it on top and keep feed on. They can do alot in a months time. Jack

Jen · « **Reply #12 on:** October 25, 2014, 01:02:31 pm »

Led- "The two outer deep frames in the top haven't been touched. At all. And there were maybe four or five bees on each of them. Wonder why they aren't doing anything with them?

1. If your wondering about the outer frames and brood, the queen will only lay for as many nurse bees there are to cover and care for the brood. So if there are only enough bees to cover say 5 frames of brood, she won't lay anymore until there is more nurse bees.

2. It is your first year, and if my memory serves me right, you got started late this year? So, if queen is starting to slow it down, this might be the amount you get this year. If they make it thru the winter, that hive is going to bust loose and go for it thru the summer.

3. Are you checking for mites?

4. That good info from Jack as well (brooksbeefarm)

Gypsi · « **Reply #13 on:** October 25, 2014, 01:08:27 pm »

Ledifini,

They aren't taking much syrup because we have a flow on. The question is what ages of bees are in the hive now and how much brood, as far as how much space they will need this winter. Did you see brood? capped? uncapped? If you did this around noon the only bees in the hive will be wax workers and nurse bees. I would not remove that super just yet. We should be at high temps at 75 right now, today is going to be 90. IF we get any rain before first frost,which we may, you may add another full box of honey.

I wouldn't make any changes. Our winter is starting VERY late this year, I haven't been able to start fall pond season because it is too hot for the koi.

Gypsi

ledifni · « **Reply #14 on:** October 25, 2014, 01:14:14 pm »

I did see brood, both capped and uncapped, and eggs, and both small and large larvae. So they're definitely working up the population. I hope you're right about the late winter, that will give them plenty of time to store honey, and from what I'm seeing they're working hard on that

riverbee · « **Reply #15 on:** October 25, 2014, 09:23:02 pm »

ok led, you did great by checking......just some thoughts......and gypsi, you know texas weather and conditions best, so feel free to chime in on my post, and led if i don't have your info correct:

my understanding is you are using 8 frame equipment, you a have a deep on top with 6 frames of brood and bees, you have a medium on the bottom being drawn and filled with honey?

this is what i would do. reverse the boxes, put the deep (the broodnest) on the bottom and the medium (honey) on top, keep feeding, even with the flow on, like jack said:
" if there is something the bees like better they will work it, if not they have the syrup"
and with syrup on, it will also encourage them to keep drawing frames. bees need the honey overhead.

"The two outer deep frames in the top haven't been touched. At all. And there were maybe four or five bees on each of them. Wonder why they aren't doing anything with them?"

cuz sometimes bees ignore these. and like jack said, they are women......

are these undrawn frames beeswax foundation or waxed plastic foundation? if they are plastic wax foundation, spray them with syrup, lightly. my other thought is, is to move these two frames inwards. not knowing what frames 2-7 contain, you do not want to place empty frames in between drawn frames that contain any brood. if 2 and 7 were solid honey, i would be inclined to move those on the outside in positions 1 and 8 and place your undrawn frames in 2 and 7. position of frames: standing from the back of the hive going left to right, frame 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8. hope i made sense?

Gypsi · « **Reply #16 on:** October 25, 2014, 09:33:29 pm »

I always super on top. You want them to put up stores and you do not want the queen to perceive a honey cap and start a SWARM situation. I'd flip them tomorrow if you have time. Wouldn't change frame order, those outer 2 frames are the best to have empty in the event of a sudden cold snap. Bees will cluster up and down more than side to side, full frames to center.

ledifni · « **Reply #17 on:** October 25, 2014, 10:01:53 pm »

Well three people so far have said I should switch the boxes, so I'm going to go ahead and do that

I'll have plenty of time tomorrow and it should be a nice warm day.

Lburou · « **Reply #18 on:** October 25, 2014, 10:05:57 pm »

Quote from: Perry on October 24, 2014, 04:00:36 pm

Or, you could just leave it as is....

I'm pretty close to you Ledifini, and I once had some bees that managed to get by the winter on four frames of honey in an eight frame box (with miserly BeeWeaver bees). They needed spring feeding though. If you reverse the boxes and have six frames of BROOD, there should be enough bees to fill the frames with late honey flows. Like was said above, feed until they won't take it and make a plan from there. There is a good honey flow on now down my way, 11 miles West of Cleburne.

riverbee · « **Reply #19 on:** October 25, 2014, 11:52:40 pm »

"I always super on top. You want them to put up stores and you do not want the queen to perceive a honey cap and start a SWARM situation. I'd flip them tomorrow if you have time. Wouldn't change frame order, those outer 2 frames are the best to have empty in the event of a sudden cold snap. Bees will cluster up and down more than side to side, full frames to center."

thanks gypsi for chiming in on the frame order of the undrawn frames.

led, i really do think it best to flip your boxes, brood on the bottom, honey stores on top. good luck tomorrow!