Author Topic: Oxalic Acid Discussion  (Read 63001 times)

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Offline riverbee

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Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
« Reply #40 on: December 20, 2014, 10:47:22 am »
LOL.......  :laugh:

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Offline efmesch

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Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
« Reply #41 on: December 20, 2014, 11:40:07 am »
I have a queston that's been gnawing at me for some time.  During the winter my garden is filled with Oxalis (Oxalis pes-caprae) flowers--they grow wild and in vast numbers.  Does anyone think that there might be a way to use them in the hives against varroa?  I've been thinking about possibly chopping them up on a blender and spreading the "soup" along the top of the frames.

I know the correct answer is "try it out yourself" and I just may do that.  But does anyone have any experience or original ideas on the subject?

Offline Lburou

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Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
« Reply #42 on: December 20, 2014, 11:57:21 am »
Hello Ef  :)  Chopped oxalis may work....but its the consistent dose that is hard to get when you are preparing trials now, and later, for actual treatments.  That is the down side for dosing home remedies of all kinds.  Here in Texas, the resulting frass from such a mix would be a haven for small hive beetles and wax moth larva.  Always happy to hear from you Ef, when I do hear from you, I know that the good has persisted one more day......  :)

P.S. As my mind continued to think about your question, I realized that in order to have mites exposed to the OA, the OA must be on the bees.  Hence, the sugar water dribble and the sublimation methods of delivery.  HTH    :)
Lee_Burough

Offline Jen

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Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
« Reply #43 on: December 20, 2014, 03:32:37 pm »
Hi Ef  :D  My question is... if you place the minced up oxalic on top of the frames, what is it you are trying to accomplish?

Will they eat it? will they drag it out?


A caution: might this plant be toxic to bees? Have you ever seen the bees go to these plants?


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Offline Slowmodem

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Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
« Reply #44 on: December 20, 2014, 03:40:34 pm »
Always happy to hear from you Ef, when I do hear from you, I know that the good has persisted one more day......  :)

That is very well said!
Greg Whitehead
Ten Mile, TN
Beekeeping at 26.4 kbs

Offline Perry

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Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
« Reply #45 on: December 20, 2014, 04:21:49 pm »
Always happy to hear from you Ef, when I do hear from you, I know that the good has persisted one more day......  :)

That is very well said!
I couldn't agree more.

And Scott...... :-[ Thanks, now I have to go find a dictionary and look up juxtaposition.
"It is not the man who has too little, but the man who craves more, that is poor."      
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Offline LazyBkpr

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Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
« Reply #46 on: December 20, 2014, 06:55:37 pm »
LOL Perry..,.    I'd like to add my "check" to the good persisting one more day   :yes:

   As far as those plants go Ef..  is there any data on the concentration of oxalic in them?  I would think, if they are concentrated enough, the bees handling them, moving them out etc will rub them against a lot of bodies and hive, what remains, is if the concentration is strong enough to affect the mites.
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Offline efmesch

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Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
« Reply #47 on: December 21, 2014, 02:02:23 am »
I can't testify about the Oxalis plants' leaves posssible toxicity to bees but I know that their flowers  are welcomed by bees.  They are a nice source of pollen in the winter when they flower.  I also know that locally, children often pluck the flowers and suck/chew on the tart stems with no adverse reactions.
My thoughts are that the bee's contact with the plant parts, rich  in OA, might have a detrimental effect on the varroa.
As to my persisting "another day", thanks for your good intentions, but I hope to be around for a good many more---but I do take them, one at a time.  ;D

Offline LazyBkpr

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Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
« Reply #48 on: December 21, 2014, 11:13:58 am »
One at a time i how we all take them Ef.. we just dont have the adversity to fight past. Keep on keeping on!
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Offline LazyBkpr

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Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
« Reply #49 on: January 19, 2015, 08:09:55 pm »
I was looking at another vaporizor, so I would have two, with the growing number of hives I have it will probably be necessary.. and found that the OxaVap site has links to some interesting research..

http://oxavap.com/information/

   Naturally, they want to show the use of OA in the best light, because they sell vaporizors, but this documentation looks untouched. most in PDF  form...
   Some good reading there..

    I actually was told about this post on another forum that I no longer go to, but went there to copy what was said by the OxaVap poster;


As promised in another thread, I contacted Ms. Meredith Laws of the EPA regarding the approval of OA for use in beehives. On behalf of Ms. Laws, Rubin Baris returned my call.
The USDA is acting as registrant of record (vs Monsanto or some other chemical company) for OA, so that the tremendous fees to get OA approved are waived.
OA will be approved in use in both syrup and vaporization
The EPA relied upon both Canadian and other sources for it's studies.
The approval is merely "months away." It is in the final stages of approval before going to the Federal Register.

Brushy Mountain will be the first to market OA. Now, what is not known is how BM will market OA be it in a syrup or for use in a vaporizer or both...

I'm guessing that other suppliers (Mann Lake, Dadant etc) will soon join in under the "me too" provision.

Here's the "unspoken" catch. While OA is available in many places, you can only use OA in accordance with its label. So if you used OA supplied by another source (and hence not having the "approved for use in beehives" label, you are in effect in violation. Brushy Mountain will have that wording on the OA label. 



   SO, in effect, you will need to order a tub of the oxalic acid that is LABELED for use in beehives from Brushy Mt, then you can keep refilling it...   That would be my work around for the label..  NOT that I think anyone would EVER check..   I have SEEN the state inspector several times at meetings etc, but he has never been by to say hi..
   If he ever does show up, he will likely never make that mistake again, after I talk and ask questions till his ears fall off...
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Offline Ray4852

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Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
« Reply #50 on: January 19, 2015, 09:45:14 pm »
I love my varrox vaporizer. I want to get one more before the price goes up. I also purchased 5 lbs of oxalic acid from E-bay for 16 dollars. My acid is 99 percent pure acid. Cant get it any better. These bee supply companies will probably sell you a little 6 oz bottle for an outrageous price with a label on it that’s approved for beekeeping.  I buy one, when its empty I fill it up with my acid because I have the bottle that says its approved for beekeeping.  Stock up now before the price goes up.

Offline Slowmodem

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Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
« Reply #51 on: January 19, 2015, 09:55:22 pm »
SO, in effect, you will need to order a tub of the oxalic acid that is LABELED for use in beehives from Brushy Mt, then you can keep refilling it...   That would be my work around for the label..  NOT that I think anyone would EVER check..   I have SEEN the state inspector several times at meetings etc, but he has never been by to say hi..
   If he ever does show up, he will likely never make that mistake again, after I talk and ask questions till his ears fall off...

Of course, if the inspector DID show up, you could say you were treating the inside woodwork with the OA, and that any incidental exposure to bees was unintentional.

 O:-)
Greg Whitehead
Ten Mile, TN
Beekeeping at 26.4 kbs

Offline LazyBkpr

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Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
« Reply #52 on: January 19, 2015, 11:51:41 pm »

   When I mentioned to Andy at a meeting that I bleached my frames he laughed. He was the one that told me that it was unlikely that OA would ever get approved because of the MONEY it cost to BE approved, and because of the money it would cost the industry if it was.
   I have to agree.  The Chem companies and package producers ARE making a killing..   Makes me a little sad I did not get into selling nucs sooner, but I will take consolation in the fact I make an honest living from people I am not deceiving or cheating.
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Offline Yankee11

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Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
« Reply #53 on: January 20, 2015, 12:44:56 am »
While we are on the subject.

I treated all my hives between Thanksgiving and Christmas. I doubt any brood was in the hives.

Do you guys treat in the spring. OAV.

Offline Jen

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Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
« Reply #54 on: January 20, 2015, 01:56:49 am »
Yup, I will, if not before. I use sticky boards under all my hives and check them every two weeks. When there is 10 mites on the sticky board, that means there are between 500 - 1000 inside the colony. So far my personal calculations never fail with this method. My records told me that I treated last January, and the one hive I had had almost 2,000 mite kill.

So Yah, it seems that my hives go about 3-4 months then I have to treat. If I treat 1 I'll treat all 3. Especially knowing that soon drones will be visiting all the hives soon.
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Offline Ray4852

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Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
« Reply #55 on: January 20, 2015, 08:33:30 am »
Last year I treated my hives 8 times with OAV. If I can get a nice day in march with temp around 50 degrees. All my hives get treated. If I’m not happy with my mite drop I continue to treat till I see nothing on the sticky board. I wont put my supers on till I’m done treating. Around June I treat again. Its more work because I have to take my supers off for 4 hours before I put them back on. My problem I have a commercial beek in the area that keeps over 200 hives. He wont treat  his hives for mites but I know my bees go over to his hives and rob them out and bring back the crap from his hives.  >:(

Offline Jen

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Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
« Reply #56 on: January 20, 2015, 02:47:20 pm »
Exactly Ray! And it's a good thing for you to know the practices of other beeks around you.

I just can't stand the idea of mites making holes in my bees! Won't have it!
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Offline Yankee11

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Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
« Reply #57 on: January 20, 2015, 06:11:04 pm »
Looks like i'll be charging the ole marine battery in a couple weeks. Time to bleach some woodenware.  ;)

Offline LazyBkpr

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Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
« Reply #58 on: January 20, 2015, 07:19:15 pm »
hehe, yep.. I tend to treat later, because its warmer.. (more comfortable for me) April usually.  They have not had a lot of brood all winter, so mite population should be low, if I treated correctly in the fall..
   Once the brood starts ramping up, so does the mite population. If you treat in spring, and only have a few mites left to contend with, by August you will have a BOOMING mite population..  Even if you killed ALL the mites in your hive.. the visiting drones would stop in and drop off more...
  The best thing to do is treat, and keep an eye on them in case they need treated again before the "planned" treatment.
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Offline LazyBkpr

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Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
« Reply #59 on: February 07, 2015, 09:04:39 am »
Hide and seek..................

USDA applies for Oxalic Acid registration as a Varroa control

https://www.federalregister.gov/articles/search?conditions%5Bterm%5D=registration+applications&commit=Go

   I cant find it among all the documents, maybe someone else will have better luck?
Drinking RUM before noon makes you a PIRATE not an alcoholic!