Oxalic Acid Discussion

[Jen]

CBT, there are youtubes where people have made their own vaporizers. Hubby could do it easily. But he said if the one that he made fried a bunch of my bees, he didn't want to answer to that, or be packin' his bags... 

[Lburou]

Lee,

Thanks for sharing this link. I downloaded it to read later. The six day lifespan brings a question to mind. How to they survive the winter/broodless period. It may be answered in the article-I'll be looking for it.

I wouldn't want to mislead you Neil, the phoretic phase of the mite begins after they crawl out of their birth cell onto a young bee, and ends when they jump off and go into a cell with a five day old larva to begin the reproductive phase of their life. 

Mites are mature enough to mate when they leave their birth cell but wait a few days, usually riding on the backs, and feeding on, nurse bees (researchers in the article above report the average phoretic phase is six days).  Their life expectancy can be a long time (months and months). Mites are able to choose the healthiest bees with soft cuticles.

During their lifetime they can have multiple phoretic phases, infesting cell after cell after cell as a foundress mite. They can hop on foragers, or even robbers, and leave the hive piggyback to spread their kind in another colony.       

[neillsayers]

Thanks Lee,

That explains it perfectly. I know ticks fleas and other parasitic insects can live for a very long time without feeding by going in to a torpor and come to life suddenly when a host happens by. Anyone who has walked into a house that has been vacant for months and is infested with fleas can attest to this.

I read the article last night and it was a good read about this little enemy.

[rober]

 it would cost me $30.00-$40.00 to build a 12 volt vaporizer similar to this.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Oxalic-Acid-Vaporizer-USA-Made-/172331597185?hash=item281fc37d81:g:t-8AAOSw8w1X5cF
 i'd need at least 4 of them. I have a test model already that uses a diesel glow plug for the heat source. I've run it off a my tractor battery & ran a cord & powered it off a 6 amp battery charger. I also tried powering it with one of those portable battery packs. the battery charger was slow going. the tractor was okay & the battery pack had the glow plug cherry red in seconds. glow plugs are not designed to run that hot for more than 20-30 seconds so if the battery pack was used i'd have to wire in a resistor or buy glow plugs by the case. the battery pack would be preferable when at my rural outyards. add that to the waiting for the unit to heat up & cool down the propane vaporizer starts to look more attractive. you can load the tank with enough acid work at least 10 hives per load. don the fat bee man & 1 local guy I know use them to vaporize mineral oil in their hives. they are available online for $50.00-$60.00 online so buying one won't break the bank. i think i just talked myself into buying one. the way the weather has been i'll probably even still have time to use it this year.

[efmesch]

A few years ago I bought a vaporizer to use it with mineral oil, like Don recommended.  I found it to be ineffective against varroa.  But I find the idea of using the vaporizer with Oxalic Acid to be very enticing.  Certainly it should be much easier than using the melting pan with electric cables and all the rest, like Rober mentions.
Two questions to be dealt with are:
1.  What concentration of OA solution do you make?
2. Just how do we deal with the risks of the beek's exposure to OA vapor?  I have a protective mask, but, with my beard it doesn't provide any real secure protection against the vapor blowing in my direction.

I  find worthy of mention, Lburou's briliant suggestion about leaving a smoker on top of the hive being treated while applying the OA----seeing the direction  the smoke blows gives you visible warning about shifts in the direction of the wind.

[rober]

efmesch-i do believe that mineral oil is now believed to be ineffective. I just put that video up to show the vaporizer again. the concentration of the mixture is the big question. I'm assuming the acid would need to be in a liquid form to be used. I've been researching that & have not found an answer yet. would the same recipe that's used for the drizzle method work? and- yes your beard would be an issue as far as getting a good seal while wearing a respirator. I know that the oil refineries in Louisiana specified no beards allowed when hiring scaffold crews from the carpenters union for that very reason.

[CBT]

We have a little grace in that we use 1 gram per deep hive body and it was tested at 4 grams to see if it hurt the bees and it did not. Don't know about the liquid. Are you saying use the liquid acid in the propane insect sprayer? If you mix with water it would make steam. It may cool fast enough to use in the hive. I did use one to make a fog machine once.

[LazyBkpr]

Good Article Lee!  I started reading it, then downloaded it so I can finish it withy a rum and coke in my hand... a bit too early for that atm....

   Interesting video!!

   I have tried glow plugs, and switched to an induction coil. I made containers that would drop into the coil.. pull the trigger the coil heats the can, and it also opens the air valve blowing air through the holes...   When the OA runs uout, dump the can thats in it and drop another in to keep going...   My design was a bit crude and the OA leaked around the can..... At which point I saw that there were commercial versions being made...   However, if the prices for those commercial versions do not drop VASTLY and soon, I may well revisit my own design to figure out how to seal the can better..
   I was also considering/wondering if the OA vaporizing might be enough to cause it to vent without the use of AIR to push it out.. that video sort of answers that question...  It might be possible to use a smaller coil closer to the bottom of the container and just have a quick detachable nozzle at the top and bypass most of the extra mass of something that surrounds the entire can/container...

[rober]

I found a PDF online for the owner's manual for the burgess vaporizer. it states it is designed to be used only with a black flag pesticide that has a certain blend of oils that will not damage the burner. I suspect that because the fat man & the local guy I know were using oil based sprays they haven't hurt their vaporizers. I called the burgess tech line & was told that I was thinking along the right lines in that an acid based sprayed would over time corrode & destroy the burner element & void the warranty. so it looks like this will not work unless I plan on buying at least one of these annually. it still might be worth trying. after every use I could run a tank of water followed by mineral oil to clean & lube the heating element. it would be  $55.00 experiment. I think these folks just got a boost is sales because of the zika virus craze.

[efmesch]

After reading your post, Rober, I did a Google search on "reaction of Oxalic Acid on metal".   Bottom line:  Oxalic acid will do exactly as you said, corrode and destroy the metal pipe through which the heated OA solution is pumped.  Washing and "oiling" it might slow down the process, but for the long term, it looks like the idea was good--but not practicable.  Too bad.   :\'(

[LazyBkpr]

I would think that it would take years before the cumulative damage begins to add up to anything significant if the device is rinsed before it is put away.

[rober]

I  haven't completely discarded the idea yet. i'd like to actually put my hands on one to get an idea on how accessible the heating element is for cleaning. maybe vaporing straight water to clean following by mineral oil to coat would extend it's lifespan.

[efmesch]

There is only one way to know:
1 Does a Burgess vaporizer work with OA?
2.How long will the vaporizer last if used with OA?
Use the scientific method---
TRY IT OUT.
Perhaps some food oil could be mixed in with the OA-water solution ?

[CBT]

It is acid. When I used my hive tool to flatten it in the vaporizer it ate the chrome or SS off of it.

[tecumseh]

a snip of another thread from another forum...
Patent https://www.google.com/patents/WO2015107233A1
Discusssion
http://patents.stackexchange.com/questions/14853/using-oxalic-acid-on-cardboard-strips-against-varroa

for anyone interest in using oxalic in a not so dangerous fashion perhaps the following patents would work... the top one is from Argentina (I think) and involves saturating a cardboard strip with oxalic.  there is nothing particularly high tech about the process and was designed to be put together on premises in a rural setting.  we shall likely try this process with the bees at the Texas A&M Bee Lab late this summer.

the patent is (I think?) the basic concept on which Randy Oliver developed dissolved oxalic on a shop towel.

[Lburou]

...for anyone interest in using oxalic in a not so dangerous fashion...saturating a cardboard strip with oxalic....

This method looks promising.  However, in my view, it may be prudent to use fast acting OAV rather than leaving it in the hive for weeks and months on end.  I can hear the call in the back of my mind reminding me of overuse of early antibiotics and early acaricides.  Organisms and mites have adapted to powerful treatments in the recent past.  Will the mites develop some resistance with continual exposure to these cardboard strips saturated with oxalic acid?  I don't know, nobody does.

We have ordered one of these vaporizors.  As long as the temperatures are in the sweet spot for oxalic vaporization (about 315-370 degrees F) it should work.  Friends and I will do mite counts and drop counts as we test it.

Here is a Link to complete instructions & recipe. Read all of this UK.Ebay ad for the recipe and operating instructions for this unit in English.  Two interesting  demos relative to this method can be seen here and here.

The instructions linked above include recipes for using synthetic acaricides (fluvalinate & Amitraz)...a very bad idea in my view, I intend only to use oxalic acid, maybe thymol. 

Notice the recipe using oxalic acid includes a simultaneous application of thymol.  Thymol won't dissolve in water, so, alcohol is used instead of water to hold thymol in solution.  Question, "do you need to suspend oxalic acid in alcohol to make this work?"  Or, can one just use water with oxalic in this machine if not applying thymol?

Looking forward to the arrival of this new machine.  Will keep you all in the loop with the results of our trials. 

[Lburou]

I would think that it would take years before the cumulative damage begins to add up to anything significant if the device is rinsed before it is put away.

One owner I read about rinses with mineral oil and stores it.  Sounds like a good plan to me.

[alfredw]

I just tried this with a Burgess Fogger. I used 100ml of everclear with 25g of Oxalic Acid dissolved into it.
It seemed to make great fog and was very easy to apply to the hives.
I did not do a mite count, nor did I put a tray underneath to collect and observe the mite kill.

Next time around I will place a clean white board underneath to see the mite kill.
I will also attempt to get a temperature reading off of the vaporizer.
I may aven try to capture some of the vapor in a container to see if it precipitates and OA.

I am curious if others have made any experiments and what they may have discovered.

[CBT]

I have been told the vapor is not hot and there is no alcohol in it.

[Mikey N.C.]

Can you use oav anytime of the year?