empty supers on in winter?

[Mosti]

Simple dilemma. Would you leave an empty super on for a couple of months  in winter? Would it be an issue of bees having to provide a lot more warmth? I did leave one last year on one of my hives without apparent negative results?

[Perry]

I would prefer not to, but if was there and propolized on I would probably be inclined to not mess with it at this point.

[iddee]

I would only remove it if the day was sunny and the temp was 15C., 55 F., or above.

[Bakersdozen]

It has been said repeatedly, on this forum, that bees heat the cluster.  They don't heat the space inside the hive.  On that premise, it would seem to be alright to leave the empty in place.  I would think you would want to remove them before it warmed enough before the bees start going crazy up there.  They could fill that with all kinds of crazy comb.
If there were snow fall, where you are located, a nice blanket of snow right above the second brood box might have a nice insulating effect.
I am sure there have been many a beekeeper that failed to get all their empty supers off before winter in the last 150 years.

[Mosti]

It has been said repeatedly, on this forum, that bees heat the cluster.  They don't heat the space inside the hive.  On that premise, it would seem to be alright to leave the empty in place.

That's reassuring...thanks! Nice sound coming out whilst I'm typing...jingle jingle...is that me only?? Hmmm...I feel like keeping on typing and typing....

[Perry]

That's reassuring...thanks! Nice sound coming out whilst I'm typing...jingle jingle...is that me only?? Hmmm...I feel like keeping on typing and typing....

Don't stop on our account! 

[robo]

It has been said repeatedly, on this forum, that bees heat the cluster.  They don't heat the space inside the hive.

Another fallacy that has been passed on for centuries.   That is like saying your woodstove heats itself but not the house.  Can someone explain how the cluster stays warm but prevents the heat from leaving through convection?   If this is the case, then they do not need to consume any honey to keep warm as heat is never escaping.     I am doing some experiments this winter to demonstate that bees will indeed heat the hive if allowed to (beekeeper not letting the heat escape with upper ventilation).   It is still early in the winter, and my data only goes back a few weeks.  However I'll share what I have at this point and you can make your own decisions. 

I have two poly nucs that have temperature/humidity sensors placed on the top bars of the frames.  There is also a 2" shim between the top of the frames and cover.   No ventilation with the exception of the entrance.   Nuc2 has the entrance down low and Nuc1 has it up higher, but below the frame tops which still leaves a dead air space above.  Temperatures are in degrees F.   As you can see, Nuc2 with the lower entrance is about 15 degrees warmer than outside and nuc1, with the higher entrance, is about half of that. We have already had at least one night in the teens and nuc2 has been consistently above 40F.   

 

[Ray4852]

Interesting. It looks like nuc number 2 has more bees because the temp is higher than number one. Is this a wireless unit you can monitor the temp from your house.

[Perry]

So is the point being that the lower entrance allows for more heat in nuc # 2?

[Ray4852]

Simple dilemma. Would you leave an empty super on for a couple of months  in winter? Would it be an issue of bees having to provide a lot more warmth? I did leave one last year on one of my hives without apparent negative results?

You can leave your super on. First thing you do. Put on a cover on top of your hive bodies with a hole in the middle. Make sure your cover has an upper entrance too. you want your hive bodies to vent out moisture. Put your super on top of cover. If your frames are still wet. The bees will come up and dry them out for you. Come spring your frames will be ready for another season. If you have another cover. Put this one on top of your honey super along with your telescoping cover. That’s it.

[Gypsi]

My top boxes are empty - no frames, just there to cover feed jars or sugar blocks, with an inner cover under the jar or block.

Robo - impressive research and what I would expect.

I have also noted that having a sticky board in my sbb raises hive temp and causes bees to be more active on cool days.

[robo]

Interesting. It looks like nuc number 2 has more bees because the temp is higher than number one.

That is one possibility or it could also be caused by the entrance height (heat escaping)

Is this a wireless unit you can monitor the temp from your house.

It is Arduino based.   I'm not running it wireless, though you can put wireless on an Arduino.   I ran an ethernet cable to the hives from my basement.  It auto updates to my web server, so yes I can monitor it from the house, or anywhere there is internet access.

[robo]

So is the point being that the lower entrance allows for more heat in nuc # 2?

That is my thought as I have three 10 frame hives, all with bottom entrances, instrumented and I don't see the delta between them as I do with the two nucs.

[Lburou]

Robo, are you monitoring condensation at the top of the hive space? 

I left a couple hives without top ventilation last winter and ended up with moldy inner and telescoping covers.  I hoped that with the sporadic warm weather we have here in winter that the moisture buildup at the top of the hive space wouldn't occur.  The mold told me that was a bad strategy.

I've always used the top vent (a 1-1.5 inch kerf in one side of the inner cover), with good success, and do not know what kind of moisture buildup to expect using an 'upper' (as opposed to top) vent location as shown in your pictures.  I'm all ears Robo   :-)

[robo]

Robo, are you monitoring condensation at the top of the hive space? 

Not directly, but I am monitoring the humidity level.

As with ferals, I do not believe ventilation is the way to control moisture.   Bees do need water to survive.   I believe it is all about limiting the space and proper insulating (highest value on top) that prevents condensation above the bees.   

I also don't believe all the "my bees died of moisture" stories.   I have yet to witness an alive 'wet/damp' cluster of bees on the verge of dying. I have witnessed dry by  I believe the wetness happens after they die of the cold.    Have you have seen bees overheat during a bee removal?  You will find them wet.  Where does this water come from?  From within them.  So my belief is that when you find dead wet bees,  it is the moisture permeating through their exoskeleton.     

Catchy beekeeping wife's tales such as "bees don't die of cold, they die from moisture"  are hard for people to look past and they are easily accepted as truth.   If one looks into the science behind it you will see many discrepancies.

If ventilation "is" the solution then I'm not sure how my "deprived" bees have survived for so long.  It is the easy solution for the beekeeper.

[Gypsi]

I vent from the bottom now. will slightly modify the way the sticky board fits in the 2 hives that had moldy bees and stuff on the bottom last winter.  I accidentally made a lightly vented sbb with sticky in that hive 1 is living in, and conditions seem to be perfect, warm enough but no mold. Going to take what I learned and apply to other hardware

[Lburou]

I hear you Robo.  I should mention that these two colonies were two deeps full of bees,not NUCs.  Either way, I don't want moldy parts at the top of my hives, I'm going to continue some ventilation up top.  I'm interested in your results though. 

[robo]

I vent from the bottom now. will slightly modify the way the sticky board fits in the 2 hives that had moldy bees and stuff on the bottom last winter.  I accidentally made a lightly vented sbb with sticky in that hive 1 is living in, and conditions seem to be perfect, warm enough but no mold. Going to take what I learned and apply to other hardware

That is my method as well.  Some have hole in the bottom board,  some have screened openings.   Bottom ventilation alone allows for stale air to be replaced with fresh air without loosing precious heat.

[brooksbeefarm]

Most feral hives are 8ft. or higher off the ground and many times have more than one entrance, being high up they catch more wind. so you can't count out ventilation all together. A feral hive in a tree cavity i think would not have a moisture problem because the tree would absorb the condensation and thick wood has a good R value. The moisture on a cluster would depend on the temp., if they are alive and can move around they can utilize the water and move in and out of the cluster to keep warm and dry out, If the temp isn't below freezing. Of course not all feral hives are in trees, houses, barns, sheds, ect., our hives (Beekeepers) are close to the ground with a higher moisture content, in a wood box with a 3/4in. insulation on the sides,either a soild or screened bottom board and a 3/4in. lid with a sheet of metal on it and what ever type of insulation we put under it. Where as a hollow tree may have several inches of insulation on the sides and several ft. above them.I guess what i'm saying is that,we are causing the bees problems buy making things easier for us to control them, while the bees are in a cluster saying, i hope they get it right. Robo i'm also interested in your results. Jack

[Ray4852]

The proper way to ventilate a bee hive you need an upper entrance on top and makeup air coming in from the bottom entrance. Heat rises and cold air settles.. heat will never escape from the bottom.  Robo I see a moisture problem with nuc number 2. number 1 is ok. What I would do. Drill 2 holes in the shim to remove the moisture.