Author Topic: Virgin Queens (Read 15640 times)

LindsayBrower1 · « **on:** January 03, 2015, 04:43:37 pm »

I seem to talk about virgin queens often and notice that others don't... I can easily identify the difference between a mated and non- mated queen and even pick them out relatively well among workers. Although identifying them is not a problem, I seem to have some curiousity that I am seeking opinions about... How long do you estimate a 5 frame nuc to completely die going into the cold months due to a virgin queen?Due to the cold weather none of the bees were leaving the hive. I know there can be a lot of different variables to getting an answer but Im curious for an approximate.. I had a late season removal that had a functioning queen at my last inspection while winterizing my hives. I checked on them a few weeks ago and the hive was dead.. For how long? I don't know.Upon inspection I found a handful of dead bees and a virgin with them... Some of its characteristics upon dead out inspection:good amount of nectar and honey, a ton of pollen, virtually no brood.. only a some capped worker pupa- some looked far enough along to be hatching but other open cells were still not mature enough but had chewed off caps... very white pupa in color, no darkening of the eyes. Anyone have any similar experiences? Should there have been some drone brood due to being infertile? There looked to be no attempt at laying from her.

LazyBkpr · « **Reply #1 on:** January 03, 2015, 04:49:21 pm »

Having a virgin queen was the cluster small? How cold has it been there? I just lost a nuc with a softball sized cluster of bees. I believe it was because they could not keep that small of a cluster warm..

If they had a decent sized cluster, it would still begin to dwindle. Quickly at first as the older field bees died, then slower as the younger bees aged into the winter.. Raising brood in January/February/March would basically keep them stable until spring/flow arrived. Doesnt sound like yours made it that far, which is why I asked about the cluster size?

LindsayBrower1 · « **Reply #2 on:** January 03, 2015, 04:51:34 pm »

Their population was booming when I last inspected them and had a laying queen. When I found them dead they had a small handful of dead bees...

Perry · « **Reply #3 on:** January 03, 2015, 06:41:28 pm »

It sounds like something happened to your laying queen, they either swarmed or superceded her and the virgin did not have enough time to mate or raise any winter bees before the cold set in. Without winter bees the older bees would just start to die off without replacements.
A full 5 frame nuc with young bees could live till spring but without a laying queen and new brood being born then it would still be doomed.

LindsayBrower1 · « **Reply #4 on:** January 03, 2015, 06:57:50 pm »

That was my original thought... Thanks for re-justifying my opinion... Can you too identify virgins fairly easy? I feel like I get the second guess from many beeks when I talk about virgins

Perry · « **Reply #5 on:** January 03, 2015, 07:02:38 pm »

Virgins are easy to identify (with some experience) once you know what you are looking for. They can be hard to find though as they are usually trying to avoid being seen, often running around on the comb to avoid detection.
You have progressed nicely, being able to tell the difference earlier than many.

LindsayBrower1 · « **Reply #6 on:** January 03, 2015, 08:03:26 pm »

Good to hear. I never second guessed myself until I received so many questions on how I knew a virgin from a mated queen... My exposure to so many swarms has really advanced me in the area of identifying queens on top of my great mentor.

LazyBkpr · « **Reply #7 on:** January 03, 2015, 08:28:07 pm »

Indeed, having Rob nearby would be a lot like winning the lottery!
I had a couple of virgin queens I had the HARDEST time finding this year.. Could have used your sharp eyes!! Having tiger striped virgins makes life hard!

LindsayBrower1 · « **Reply #8 on:** January 03, 2015, 09:28:04 pm »

The tiger stripes are always challenging! Mated or not! So I went through my dead out one more time... I actually discovered that there ARE a few random eggs in regular worker cells. My question is, will an infertile queen lay eggs in a worker size cell even though they would develop into drone?? I've read that normally a queen would decide whether or not to fertilize an egg before laying it.. So would a drone layer know they couldn't fertilize eggs?? Perhaps a silly question....

Jen · « **Reply #9 on:** January 03, 2015, 10:22:22 pm »

Not a silly question at all!! I would like to know this as well...

LindsayBrower1 · « **Reply #10 on:** January 03, 2015, 10:44:07 pm »

Awesome! Hopefully someone can enlighten us

Perry · « **Reply #11 on:** January 04, 2015, 07:14:55 am »

Yes, an infertile queen will lay eggs in worker sized cells. Sometimes even "normal" queens do it, which results in the bullet shaped bumps that often appear in the middle of worker comb, built to accommodate the larger sized drones.

LindsayBrower1 · « **Reply #12 on:** January 04, 2015, 08:38:01 am »

Aha! Perry I forgot about those cells! I think its called shotgun brood or something like that! On beemaster a member was telling me an infertile queen would never lay an egg.... Then why would an infertile worker be able to lay under the right circumstances???

Perry · « **Reply #13 on:** January 04, 2015, 08:51:53 am »

There are many different possibilities I suppose.
Would a queen who has run out of sperm and becomes a drone layer be considered an infertile queen?
Shotgun brood refers more to an irregular/poor brood pattern, what looks more like scattered buckshot. It does not necessarily mean an infertile queen, but possibly/probably a poor one.

LindsayBrower1 · « **Reply #14 on:** January 04, 2015, 08:58:07 am »

Makes sense! So many terms I have to get use to!
Your example is a good one... I had to email an outside source and see what kind of answer we get!
Thanks Perry!!

Perry · « **Reply #15 on:** January 04, 2015, 09:02:22 am »

Lindsay, it's questions like these that keep my brain from turning to mush. I have to stop and think.
Keep them coming, I can use all the help I can get!

LindsayBrower1 · « **Reply #16 on:** January 04, 2015, 09:07:34 am »

This was an answer I received on Beemaster:
"In my experience (and in Francis Huber's Observation) a queen who never mates never lays an egg. A queen who mates late lays unfertilized eggs. She doesn't know they are not fertile, of course. Drone layers were either mated late or they are old and ran out of sperm to fertilize the eggs"

Im interested to hear back from Rob and see what he says...
Is this like Who wants to be a Millionaire?? "Phone a friend" more like email a friend option underway

LindsayBrower1 · « **Reply #17 on:** January 04, 2015, 09:11:08 am »

Although, now that my mind is spinning circles with possibilities, the first thing I look for in a Queen right hive is EGGS... This dead out with a virgin has eggs in it though.... HMMMMM

Perry · « **Reply #18 on:** January 04, 2015, 09:32:07 am »

Are there multiple eggs in cells? If so, it may have developed laying workers near the end. Just another thought.

LindsayBrower1 · « **Reply #19 on:** January 04, 2015, 09:39:55 am »

No Perry, One egg per cell smack dab in the middle of the cell.. I pondered the thought of a laying worker as well but this kind of threw that idea right out of the window. I didn't just take a quick look through the frames either, I searched it well. The hive had enough population when they had a mated queen to easily cover any eggs she was laying... The eggs I saw lastnight weren't hatched yet, just eggs....