Author Topic: Nucs or package (Read 13846 times)

Curtchann · « **on:** January 07, 2015, 07:44:08 pm »

What would give the new beekeeper the best advantage of having their first hive survive through the winter, starting with a Nuc or purchasing package bees. My goal for the first year is just getting them to the point that they can survive the winter here in Michigan.

iddee · « **Reply #1 on:** January 07, 2015, 07:49:06 pm »

If you can buy a nuc as early as you can a package, a nuc is best. If the package can be had 2 months earlier, a package is best.

A GOOD nuc is a month or more ahead of a package in development time. Just be sure you know the nuc seller or check his credentials.

riverbee · « **Reply #2 on:** January 07, 2015, 08:58:43 pm »

what iddee said curchann,
i prefer nucs, established nucs, with a proven queen that is already laying.

LogicalBee · « **Reply #3 on:** January 07, 2015, 09:02:59 pm »

My preference would be to start with a strong hive if that can be had for a reasonable price. A strong hive could/should be split in the June timeframe anyways; giving you 2 to 4 colonies ready for next winter. June splits will have plenty of time to get strong for next winter and you won’t have to spend money on mated queens if you split in June.

IMO, we all make mistakes when starting something new. The more mistakes you endure, the more competent you become at something. More colonies gives you better odds of having something survive the summer, the pests, the mistakes, crushed queens, skunks, robbing, the winter, etc.

If a strong hive can’t be had for a reasonable price, then I would go with a nuc. I know some folks like the idea of all mediums (for weight reasons), but you get more value (comb space) with deep nucs. 5 frame deeps are a common configuration whereas beeks seem to offer 6 frame mediums as nucs too. You get a lot more baby bees and comb space in 5 deeps than 6 mediums. It’s not that hard to convert the bees over to whatever comb size you like once you have a sustainable bee yard. That's what I would focus on first; becoming self sustaining with regards to bees!

Packages will work, but getting them too early in our climate can lead to a lot of worrying! It’s liable to snow here into May. That cold weather and limited forage is harder on packages than on nucs.

The other thing to be weary of is our fellow bee keepers; hate to say it! Some of them will buy packages from down south, stick them in a nuc box, and sell them as “nucs”. Those are not nearly as valuable as an over wintered Michigan hive or nuc.

Perry · « **Reply #4 on:** January 07, 2015, 09:23:50 pm »

I agree with Iddee as well.

LogicalBee makes a couple of very valid points:
"Some of them will buy packages from down south, stick them in a nuc box, and sell them as “nucs”. Those are not nearly as valuable as an over wintered Michigan hive or nuc."
Substitute Michigan for wherever you live, and it holds true, even up here.

"That's what I would focus on first; becoming self sustaining with regards to bees!"
I tell this to a lot of folks who want to start by buying bees for TBH's or wanting to go treatment free right out of the gate. KISS is huge! First, get in the game and just learn to keep bees alive, then stretch your legs in whatever direction suits you.

I just finished reading a rant (his words) that Randy Oliver did on this last point and it opened my eyes really.

Yankee11 · « **Reply #5 on:** January 07, 2015, 10:02:41 pm »

Nucs,

I think I would even rather have a swarm over a package.

LazyBkpr · « **Reply #6 on:** January 07, 2015, 10:32:47 pm »

Quote from: Perry on January 07, 2015, 09:23:50 pm

First, get in the game and just learn to keep bees alive, then stretch your legs in whatever direction suits you.

I have not read that rant yet, but like Mr. Oliver more each time I read something he writes.
You have NO IDEA how many X beekeepers I talk to that tried, and failed in their first year, and never tried again, OR, they tried and failed, and want to know WHY..
90% of the time it was because they wanted to do something fancy, or different, or Nothing...
Nothing? They were confused by so many different answers and options, so they did nothing, it was simple to do nothing.
Indeed it is, and on a PERFECT year, nothing may very well work! In any other type of year doing nothing will not be as productive..
Read my website and you will understand exactly what Perry just said.. KEEP your bees alive that first year. It is not hard, in fact, it is fun and exciting. If you want to go treatment free, or natural, or use herbal remedies for mites etc... I have no argument about that, so long as you wait at least a year, preferably TWO before you start trying it. If someone tells you NEVER feed your bees, Please, dont restrain yourself, slap them for me.

It doesnt take a lot to learn the basics, and keep your bees in a basic manner the first year. It will give you some confidence, and some HONEY that second summer!

Yankee11 · « **Reply #7 on:** January 08, 2015, 08:46:23 am »

Perry,

Do you have a link to that write up. I would like to read it?

Perry · « **Reply #8 on:** January 08, 2015, 08:58:41 am »

The article is about an easy way to raise queens, but he starts off with an interesting "rant"! I kinda like it myself.

I do not want to offend anyone who takes issue with the article, I just believe there are valid points to what is being said.
The link at the end of his rant is interesting as well.

http://scientificbeekeeping.com/queens-for-pennies/

Ray4852 · « **Reply #9 on:** January 08, 2015, 09:05:54 am »

Nucs are good if you can find one at an reasonable price. Ask the beekeeper if he treats his bees for mites. No mite treatment stay away from it. It will never get thru the winter. Check the condition of his frames too. You want newer frames in it. Make sure you are getting a new mated queen. Expect to pay 130 to 180 dollars for a 5 frame nuc. package bees are good because you can re-queen it at a later date with a local queen. You know the condition of your frames too. Your package bees might have a few mites in it but nothing to worry about. You could treat it for mites when you have it put together later. Expect to pay 90 to 110 dollars for package bees. I think a package is the better way to go for a new beekeeper. Your not spending a lot of money for a box of bugs. You can have an experience beekeeper help you re queen it later with a mated queen from your area.

iddee · « **Reply #10 on:** January 08, 2015, 09:12:07 am »

"" package bees are good because you can re-queen it at a later date with a local queen.""

You can do the same with a nuc. Many nuc suppliers will pull 3 or 4 frames of brood and stores, order Hawaiian queens early in the spring and sell that as a nuc. Be sure to ask the seller if the bees in the nuc are the queen's offspring, or if the queen was introduced.

Perry · « **Reply #11 on:** January 08, 2015, 09:16:06 am »

I know a keep who does something very similar to what Ray is talking about. When he sells nucs in the spring, his buyers have 2 choices:
# 1 - a nuc made up with a young imported queen (of which he knows very little).
# 2 - He sells the nuc with an overwintered queen of his own, simply requeening his hive with the imported queen. When he then raises his own queens a month or so later, he goes around and requeens all the hives that have those imported queens in them.
I may soon follow this example, except for habitually requeening the imported queens a month later, only doing that where neccessary. It beats having 2 waves of nuc sales, those that want early nucs (imported queens) and those that want local queens (later).

Ray · « **Reply #12 on:** January 08, 2015, 09:36:33 am »

It's six to one, half a dozen to the other.
Packages are available here in the Lower Peninsula in mid-April.
There are some that are importing nucs from the south and California.
Local ( Survivor?) nucs won't be available until May ( weather permitting).
Price is another issue.
Waiting for local nucs may save or cost, depending on the weather, supply and demand.
I am personally hoping for some suppliers to come to their senses and have an oversupply later.

From what I have read on assorted forums ( A little, speaking from experience here):
1) NewBees hives survive the first winter fine ( Beginner's luck?)
2) Second year Beeks have terrible losses.

AWSBees have packages for $112.00 with a $7 box deposit. I have had good luck with them.

Curtchann · « **Reply #13 on:** January 08, 2015, 11:20:03 am »

Thanks All, you have given me questions to ask that I would have never thought to ask.

apisbees · « **Reply #14 on:** January 08, 2015, 03:21:17 pm »

Packages are offered in 2, 3, & 4 lb sizes. If you have drawn comb to put the bees on, a 2 lb package will work. But if the bees need to draw out frames of foundation or if you are going foundation less a 3 lb or larger package should be bought.
A 2 lb package has bees to cover 4 deep drawn frames. And a 3 lb bees to cover 6. So a month after you have installed the package every extra pound of bees will provide 2 more frames of brood ready to emerge

pistolpete · « **Reply #15 on:** January 09, 2015, 02:52:43 am »

Normally, local bees are best. If you can, find an apiary that has bees that have performed well in your climate for a decade or more. Order early (like now) and wait patiently until local queens are available at the end of May. IMO, two Nucs are good starting point in bee keeping. Packages are better suited to replacing winter losses in established apiaries.

Yankee11 · « **Reply #16 on:** January 09, 2015, 11:01:37 am »

I agree. I have never bought bees and don't plan to. I just like the idea of local feral stock. I have built up to around 50 hives (4th year) all local bees and have yet to loose a hive in winter. I really am not fighting SHB problems either. I have some in hives but not a lot. I lost a couple to SHB but both instances were all my fault.

I am to the point now to where I can split or graft from my best hives and hopefully have stronger and stronger local stock.

I started by catching 2 swarms on the same day and have never looked back.

Disadvantage is you have to wait for the swarm calls to get started, so if I couldn't wait, I would probably start with someone that raises local feral stock

MHO.

Curtchann · « **Reply #17 on:** January 13, 2015, 06:05:08 pm »

Well the first nucs I found are coming in April, they are from down south with a new queen from splits. The hunt continues.......

Ray · « **Reply #18 on:** January 14, 2015, 10:06:03 am »

This is a little off subject.
I would start with 3 colonies, if you can afford it.
One isn't enough due to the possibility of loss.
The second is a good insurance policy.
The third one would be your experimental colony.
Splits, Foundation-less, Queen cell production........ $:-\$

iddee · « **Reply #19 on:** January 14, 2015, 11:48:22 am »

Ray, I "almost" agree with you. I would start with 2 the first year to learn. Then go to 3 the 2nd year for Splits, Foundation-less, Queen cell production.