Author Topic: Interesting paragraph. (Read 9078 times)

Perry · « **on:** January 23, 2015, 10:04:13 am »

I am in the middle of several good books (focus Perry, focus)

and was struck by a particular paragraph written by one of the most brilliant "bee" minds in Canada, if not globally. Bee Time, written by Mark Winston.
It is in a chapter entitled "A thousand cuts", and it brings focus to what the author has witnessed in the last decade, it goes as follows:

"Solutions won't be found easily and won't be found in a continuation of megabeekeeping in a highly standardized mass agricultural system. It also won't be just hobby beekeepers in overalls tending only two or three hives and producing a few jars of honey each year. Beekeeping's future can be found in the middle ground of smaller, local operations with a few hundred hives each, integrated into an agricultural system that is compatible with stable, stationary apiaries."

(I have highlighted in blue what I consider to be interesting words IMHO).
Your thoughts folks, is he right, or did he just insult a bunch of people?

iddee · « **Reply #1 on:** January 23, 2015, 10:31:04 am »

He's dreaming of Utopia. Nice thoughts, but ain't gonna happen. Soylent green is a stronger possibility of actually happening.

You asked for my opinion. :'(

brooksbeefarm · « **Reply #2 on:** January 23, 2015, 10:39:02 am »

I think solutions can and have been found in all three categories, large, med., and small beekeeping operations, not just in the middle. Who has a stable stationary apiary anyway?

Jack

Jen · « **Reply #3 on:** January 23, 2015, 11:48:26 am »

On a personal basis - "It also won't be just hobby beekeepers in overalls tending only two or three hives and producing a few jars of honey each year.

If I hadn't caught the ten swarms from my one hive last year, all those bees if they stayed alive, would have contributed to more functional colonies for the world. I think making 10 colony's from one hive is Huge.

On a planetary basis - "integrated into an agricultural system that is compatible with stable, stationary apiaries."

This is the rub. Bee's and other pollinators are not going to ever live a pesticide free life again. Iddee is right, Utopia is not within grasp. But, I believe that IT IS the SMALL AND MEDIUM apiaries that are going to make a positive change the world, because we can more easily, persoanally, and affordably, tend to our hives without harsh chemicals, wherein, more healthy bees will be produced.

rodmaker · « **Reply #4 on:** January 23, 2015, 03:52:46 pm »

In my opinion we must have the big operations to do the pollinating of certain crops and are mobile such as almonds. stationary bees won't work . After the bloom of the almonds there is not enough forage to support all the hives necessary to do the pollinating. It takes two hives per acre for almonds. I think it will take all different size operations to contribute to solving the problems we face with our bees,

LazyBkpr · « **Reply #5 on:** January 23, 2015, 04:20:15 pm »

I agree.. So long as the large operations can make a profit moving their bees from source to source there will not be an end to it. they will always be there, but they are not the ones interested in fixing problems, they are the ones interested in patching them the fastest cheapest way possible. Small beekeepers cant do anything to solve problems. If they experiment, and lose their hive, they are DONE for the year.
The interest comes in with the people who are on the edge of commercial, but are not making big money moving their hives. THEY are the ones who can test this, and that, and if they lose a hive or ten, they can recover. They are likely to be the ones that find something that works.
They are also the ones that go to the trouble of making sure their bees have the forage they need. Planting for the bees for instance. It doesnt take a really bright person to know that having 20 hives in one spot will be too many for the forage available in the ditches and fence rows. If you want 20 hivers in one location, YOU have to provide what nature does not.
I think these will be the people making the best queens, the best honey, and I think they are the future of beekeeping. The southern Apiaries are increasingly at risk of AHB Genetics. Getting queens from further north will become increasingly important.
LARGE Commercial operations DONT CARE about resistance to mites. They need 900 queens NOW!!
The little guy? May very well put good resistant queens in their hives. Queens, he or she will GET from the middle ground/class beekeeper.
I think the BIG queen rearing operations will continue top sell to the BIG commercial pollinators, but that average beekeepers will slowly begin to turn to wanting four things.
GOOD genetics that they dont have to treat, Bees that will survive their winters, Bees that are gentle to work with, yet are still productive...

Queen producers that used to be capable of sending me queens if I called in March, are now booked solid when I call in January. I dont see that getting better. I see it getting worse. I see an opening that needs the middle of the road stationary beekeeper to step in and fill.

You asked Perry..

Perry · « **Reply #6 on:** January 23, 2015, 04:50:53 pm »

Indeed, I did ask for it and I am pleased with what I am seeing.

I agree with Iddee that the "big" guys are never going to change because they can't! It is not that they don't want to, it's that a shift of that magnitude would be impossible.
But I have to say I agree with Scott on a lot of it.
I believe it is going to be the keepers that try to maintain apiaries that are sustainable unto themselves! Would this work in Almonds? NO, but not because of why you'd think IMHO. If the growers were to set set aside blocks of farrow land and maintain them interspersed with their Almonds, apiaries could potentially co-exist there. But I suppose the use of land to it's fullest is top priority. I think this was what Winston is pointing to. In a study done here in North America, it was shown that keeping blocks of "wild" land in the mix with cropland added greatly to the pollination effort by other pollinators. It was also shown that when honey bees are combined with other pollinators, the honey bee stepped up it's game and actually boosted their efforts. That was an interesting observation, was it the competition factor?
In the "old days", there were family farms all spread around, and probably many of those had hives, there was no need to maintain huge apiaries. But along came mega-farms, and the pollination requirements could no longer be satisfied by those stationary apiaries.

Slowmodem · « **Reply #7 on:** January 23, 2015, 07:24:05 pm »

Quote from: Perry on January 23, 2015, 10:04:13 am

I am in the middle of several good books (focus Perry, focus) and was struck by a particular paragraph written by one of the most brilliant "bee" minds in Canada, if not globally. Bee Time, written by Mark Winston.
It is in a chapter entitled "A thousand cuts", and it brings focus to what the author has witnessed in the last decade, it goes as follows:

"Solutions won't be found easily and won't be found in a continuation of megabeekeeping in a highly standardized mass agricultural system. It also won't be just hobby beekeepers in overalls tending only two or three hives and producing a few jars of honey each year. Beekeeping's future can be found in the middle ground of smaller, local operations with a few hundred hives each, integrated into an agricultural system that is compatible with stable, stationary apiaries."

(I have highlighted in blue what I consider to be interesting words IMHO).
Your thoughts folks, is he right, or did he just insult a bunch of people?

Ummmmm, I wear overalls and have two or three hives...........

Slowmodem · « **Reply #8 on:** January 23, 2015, 07:33:25 pm »

Quote from: iddee on January 23, 2015, 10:31:04 am

He's dreaming of Utopia. Nice thoughts, but ain't gonna happen. Soylent green is a stronger possibility of actually happening.

You asked for my opinion. :'(

LOL This reminds me of a Barney Miller episode where Fish was so depressed. He said he had just watched a movie about turning old people into crackers.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread.............................

Yankee11 · « **Reply #9 on:** January 23, 2015, 07:47:05 pm »

So whats going to happen when the big commercial guys keep having massive loses and have to shell out big bucks to replace hives every year? The price of the pollination services have to keep going up which will drive up the price of the products being pollinating.

This will also keep putting bigger and bigger demand on nucs, queens etc.

Moving bees from one mono crop to another is not natural for the bees.

I don't know where this is all headed, but I am working at being in that middle group some day. I have 1/2 my hives on mono crops and 1/2 my hives o all natural land. Trying compare.

Jen · « **Reply #10 on:** January 24, 2015, 12:15:37 am »

Slow- "Ummmmm, I wear overalls and have two or three hives...........

I almost made the visual Slow, I wear jammies and have 3 hives

rodmaker · « **Reply #11 on:** January 24, 2015, 12:43:04 pm »

Olivares honey bees located in Orland california is a breeder and shipper of quality bees and queens.They have over 10,000 hives. They have their bees on three thousand acres two thousand of which are planted in clover cover crops and mustard and other just for their bees.
They do this to provide good forage to raise quality queens. They are also a pollination company.To say that big operations don't contribute to solutions we face is wrong. Just as in all forms of business there are good and bad but i believe that big beekeepers are very interested in solving our problems if for no other reason than just to keep their costs down. Randy Oliver is also in the pollination business . I just don't think we should lump all big operations under the label of not trying to solve our problems. It is going to take all different sizes of operations to solve the problems we face and they all have something to contribute.

Jen · « **Reply #12 on:** January 24, 2015, 02:33:19 pm »

Very Nicely Put Rod ~ and I think that most of us beeks feel that way. My goal as a small time beekeeper is to help other small time beekeepers be successful with their hive thru all the trial and tribulations AND successes.

I mentioned in a post above yours, that we as small time beeks, can play a big part in the repopulated the planet by keeping our bees as healthy as we can. And in addition, maybe leaving some of those swarms out there, and not hiving them would undoubtedly help repopulate.

And, something just occured to me. So, say you get a call, or you stumble across a swarm on a bush at the park. For fear of someone spraying it with Black Flag, how about gathering that swarm and just relocating it out in the woods somewhere. Unless of course you are trying to build your apiary. I like this idea! Yes I do

LazyBkpr · « **Reply #13 on:** January 24, 2015, 04:07:56 pm »

I would have to see, and learn more about that operation to believe it. Each I have seen, that reaches a certain size changes from being about the bees, or cars, or tractors or products, to being about the money. This fits more than just bees, it has to do with just about every large company. Loyalty and service no longer mean anything, so long as the guys at the top get their paychecks.
So, I am not being prejudice against BEE companies as much as I am prejudice against BIG companies. Once upon a time, they shut down the big corporations when they got to big and became a monopoly.. They should do that again, with Wal Mart, Menards etc.. then we would get back all of our mom and pop stores. The local lumber yards, where quality and service MEANT something. I could go on for a long time...
No, I dont honestly believe that ANY big company has a goal of anything more than making money. If they did, then they would not have gotten that big. You dont set a goal to grow BIG because you think it will be enjoyable.

Bamabww · « **Reply #14 on:** January 25, 2015, 05:33:45 am »

Beekeeping's future can be found in the middle ground of smaller, local operations with a few hundred hives each

From my perspective, that is not a small operation.

Bakersdozen · « **Reply #15 on:** January 25, 2015, 09:04:31 am »

Quote from: Bamabww on January 25, 2015, 05:33:45 am

Beekeeping's future can be found in the middle ground of smaller, local operations with a few hundred hives each

From my perspective, that is not a small operation.

Agree. A couple of hundred hives boggles my mind. But I think the individual with a few hundred hives probably still has the bees well being foremost in their minds. These are beekeepers that, for the most part, still open their own hives. They are hands on, keeping records, treating their hives, making splits, requeening, any maybe raising their own queens. The middle size beekeeper is also keeping diversity in the gene pool alive and well. Those huge operations, I would speculate, have seasonal workers tending to the majority of hives. There is something lost there.

rodmaker- thanks for the info on Olivares.

Perry- "If the growers were to set aside blocks of farrow land and maintain them interspersed with their Almonds...
If I understand correctly Perry, those almond groves are basically in an artificial culture. I believe they are planted in the desert. Without irrigation, nothing much would be there. Much like the "breadbasket of America" western Kansas. Scary thoughts about the future of agriculture.

tbonekel · « **Reply #16 on:** January 25, 2015, 09:30:22 am »

Quote from: LazyBkpr on January 24, 2015, 04:07:56 pm

I would have to see, and learn more about that operation to believe it. Each I have seen, that reaches a certain size changes from being about the bees, or cars, or tractors or products, to being about the money. This fits more than just bees, it has to do with just about every large company. Loyalty and service no longer mean anything, so long as the guys at the top get their paychecks.
So, I am not being prejudice against BEE companies as much as I am prejudice against BIG companies. Once upon a time, they shut down the big corporations when they got to big and became a monopoly.. They should do that again, with Wal Mart, Menards etc.. then we would get back all of our mom and pop stores. The local lumber yards, where quality and service MEANT something. I could go on for a long time...
No, I dont honestly believe that ANY big company has a goal of anything more than making money. If they did, then they would not have gotten that big. You dont set a goal to grow BIG because you think it will be enjoyable.

I think you said A LOT right there, Lazy. I think when someone makes the decision to be a BIG company, at first, there may be some thought as to the best interest for the bees, but I think that quickly goes away when the lust for money takes over. I don't want to lump everyone into this. There are some good companies of course. When you have thousands of hives making a living for you and you have major losses from season to season, the first thought is "how fast can I get back to where I was". So enters more treating, more testing and using the bees more like an agricultural product than a wild animal. I don't think the bees respond well to that. Then I think these mega treated bees interact with the healthy bees and it messes up the system. Sorry I haven't been in on this conversation much. I hate to just rear my ugly head every now and then. I love good discussions, though. And there are a lot of good arguments for both sides.

iddee · « **Reply #17 on:** January 25, 2015, 09:39:43 am »

At what number of hives does a person leave middle size and become large?

Perry · « **Reply #18 on:** January 25, 2015, 10:02:25 am »

Quote from: iddee on January 25, 2015, 09:39:43 am

At what number of hives does a person leave middle size and become large?

Good question. I think that I'm large at around 65 to 70 hives. I guess it's all a matter of perspective. I admit I was surprised at the mention of a few hundred hives as well.

brooksbeefarm · « **Reply #19 on:** January 25, 2015, 10:06:02 am »

To me iddee, if you are the only beekeeper taking care of your hives, i'm thinking 100 hives? I've had 92 hives and that became almost a full time job, i'm going to try for 100 hives just to say i had 100 hives one time.

Jack