Author Topic: Fumagillin (Read 18494 times)

LindsayBrower1 · « **Reply #20 on:** February 12, 2015, 10:08:56 pm »

That was my finding on the dead hive but the other hives do have a high population. Going to put the medication on ASAP. Thanks for the support

camero7 · « **Reply #21 on:** February 13, 2015, 01:51:49 pm »

Quote

But dont come down on the folks who prefer to save their bees. Or.. you have a better remedy?

Well, there are some very good studies that report that hives treated with Fumagillin do not survive as well as those left untreated. Also my bees often tend to move honey up into the supers to make room for brood, if that happens who's to say that some doesn't get up there. I also notice that the OP has no spore counts, doesn't really know if the bees have nosema and which strain they have. I NEVER treat for anything without a diagnosis and some assurance that the treatment will benefit the bees. Those that have read my postings over the years know I am not against treatment, use it regularly for mites. But I draw the line at a poison that is proven to be pretty much ineffective.

LazyBkpr · « **Reply #22 on:** February 13, 2015, 05:44:34 pm »

Well, there are some very good studies that report that hives treated with Fumagillin do not survive as well as those left untreated.

Well, there are some very good studies that report hives treated with Fumagilin come into spring BOOMING.. And in fact many commercial Apiaries dont like to use it, because it is nearly impossible to stop early swarming when they do.

Also my bees often tend to move honey up into the supers to make room for brood, if that happens who's to say that some doesn't get up there.

I typically remove honey and syrup when the major flow starts because I dont want syrup from last year up in my supers any more than I want Fumagilin up there. Your saying you let them put the syrup in your supers and thats OK?

I also notice that the OP has no spore counts, doesn't really know if the bees have nosema and which strain they have. I NEVER treat for anything without a diagnosis and some assurance that the treatment will benefit the bees. Those that have read my postings over the years know I am not against treatment, use it regularly for mites. But I draw the line at a poison that is proven to be pretty much ineffective.

Well I am really glad for you. i dont have the money to spend, so I have to depend on what I see. What I see looks like Nosema. AFAIK there is only one way to treat nosema. I have heard about conflicting reports, but have never seen any detailed proof.. if i did see detailed proof, i would probably STILL use it because there is nothing else to try that MIGHT save my hives.

Fumagilin-B is the only approved nosema treatment in North America. It has been demonstrated to be effective against Nosema ceranae, and Nosema Apis. Adding Fumagilin-B to your fall syrup, the syrup you use to insure your hives have as much capped honey/syrup as possible before winter arrives will insure Nosema does not become a problem. The bees will feed on this syrup through the winter, and come out BOOMING in the spring.

What you see above is one of the articles I have copied. i have other sites that say similar. I can come up with sites PROVING it works. You can come up with sites PROVING it doesnt.. Welcome to beekeeping!
The fact is, it is approved for use in hives, even if "YOU" do not like it. So I say again, Please don't come down on folks for doing the best they can with the only thing they have available.
I dont claim you are against treating, nor do i even harbor ill will if you choose not to use Fumagilin.. I do take exception to the vehemence with which you discredit something useful and necessary. Something I have used for quite a long time with no bad experiences. I have seen the bees come out of winter BOOMING after being treated with Fumagilin, so I personally know it works. If you choose not to use it, then thats great, I think the package industry will be happy to replace your bees.

LindsayBrower1 · « **Reply #23 on:** February 13, 2015, 09:04:51 pm »

Update*
After taking my bees and having them looked at under a microscope they told me my bees do not have nosema... They were particularly shocked and said my nosema spore count was the lowest they've seen... less than a normal "healthy" sample. He even took another slide of my sample and still confirmed the count was extremely low... he let me get in and showed me what the spores look like under the microscope, it was neat and I learned a bunch

LazyBkpr · « **Reply #24 on:** February 14, 2015, 08:54:08 am »

Did they give you any idea of what they might have?

LindsayBrower1 · « **Reply #25 on:** February 14, 2015, 09:34:05 am »

I'm waiting to talk to Rob, but they suggested it could just be a bad case of dysentary.

camero7 · « **Reply #26 on:** February 14, 2015, 10:44:11 am »

Quote

After taking my bees and having them looked at under a microscope they told me my bees do not have nosema... They were particularly shocked and said my nosema spore count was the lowest they've seen... less than a normal "healthy" sample. He even took another slide of my sample and still confirmed the count was extremely low... he let me get in and showed me what the spores look like under the microscope, it was neat and I learned a bunch

Which is exactly why I don't treat without a diagnosis. I don't think a couple hundred $$$ microscope is beyond the scope of a serious beekeeper.

tbonekel · « **Reply #27 on:** February 14, 2015, 01:11:50 pm »

From your other thread, what interested me the most is how they went poop crazy when you opened your hive, almost as if they were not able to leave to release themselves. Good luck!

tbonekel · « **Reply #28 on:** February 14, 2015, 01:16:58 pm »

One other thing, since it appears that they don't have nosema, the act of opening up the hive may have actually saved your bees. What kind of bottom boards do you have?

riverbee · « **Reply #29 on:** February 14, 2015, 07:16:18 pm »

camero7~

"Which is exactly why I don't treat without a diagnosis. I don't think a couple hundred $$$ microscope is beyond the scope of a serious beekeeper."

camero, i have a question, are you saying we are not serious beekeepers unless we own a microscope to detect nosema?

iddee · « **Reply #30 on:** February 14, 2015, 08:49:36 pm »

What should I do, camero? I own a microscope, but don't know how to use it and wouldn't know nosema from smallpox. Am I a serious beekeeper?

camero7 · « **Reply #31 on:** February 15, 2015, 10:16:04 am »

If you're concerned your bees have nosema and you treat without verification makes no sense to me. Read Randy Oliver's site to learn how to use the scope, that's how I learned. Not that difficult. Or send some bees to Beltsville, they will diagnose nosema for you at no cost. I send some there to verify my own findings. So far I'm fairly accurate. I don't do complete spore counts, just a field of vision in the scope view. It will tell you a lot. Interestingly I have very low nosema counts and have never treated.

iddee · « **Reply #32 on:** February 15, 2015, 11:29:55 am »

Just teasing you. I don't treat. People pay me to take their bees. ""Out of walls and ceilings"" I keep them on a live and let die program.

I do agree with you on the "test before treating" for any and all things.

camero7 · « **Reply #33 on:** February 15, 2015, 12:26:48 pm »

for those that think they don't have fumigillin in their honey, just saying. If this got out to the general public what do you think it would do to honey sales?

Although the US Federal Drug Administration disallows fumagillin usage during the foraging season, marketable honey in U.S. was found to contain 60 ng/g of fumagillin residue [10], approximately 0.0024× the recommended treatment concentration. We calculated that fumagillin degradation in the field should be approximately −log10/month based on residues in the U.S. and field results from Spain.

http://journals.plos.org/plospathogens/article?id=10.1371/journal.ppat.1003185

tefer2 · « **Reply #34 on:** February 15, 2015, 01:08:32 pm »

wondering what became of all that treated syrup, made us decide that they probably moved what was left into the supers as well. How would you know what frames contained fumagilin-B.
My next thought was, there is just to much negative talk about this stuff in Europe, and now in the US also. Known Birth Defects in mammals, sounds scary enough for me.
We made the choice to stop using it and just take our chances with our bees.
The next year, I waited for the other shoe to drop!
It never came. I'm still waiting.....
I was shocked that the incidence of Nosema actually went away. How could that have happened?
It's my feeling that keeping well fed bees and low Varroa counts, is the key for a healthy hive that can better handle infections thrown at them. JMO

tefer2 · « **Reply #35 on:** February 15, 2015, 01:24:17 pm »

Cam, Randy Oliver has done an excellent job of explaining his Nosema testing methods.
I think it is a good read for one and all to spend a little time reviewing his research on Nosema.
His explanation of microscope usage is so simple, even I can master Nosema spore testing.

For those of you that do have a microscope, do you prefer a rechargeable LED, or a hard wired power unit with a chord?
I sure would like a new microscope, mine is a POS that I purchased at the local WMU college used for $100.00

camero7 · « **Reply #36 on:** February 15, 2015, 01:36:15 pm »

Randy is how I learned and if I can do it anyone can!

I bought the same one that Randy recommended on his web site. Works for me. I take it with me to the yards in the fall and test on my truck hood.

tefer2 · « **Reply #37 on:** February 15, 2015, 01:47:13 pm »

So, you have the rechargeable unit. How long does a charge last?

LazyBkpr · « **Reply #38 on:** February 15, 2015, 03:00:00 pm »

I am looking for a microscope.. I see them occasionally from schools etc, and I will eventually have one.. BUT...
Having one means NOTHING.. i would STILL put Fumagilin on that hive AS FAST AS i COULD..

WHY?

Because it does not harm the bees!

When I see definitive proof it DOES harm the bees. i will rethink my methods, AND, I will still use it, only i will use it a little more judiciously..
I dont have problems with getting it, or syrup into my honey, because I am a serious beekeeper that pays attention to where the syrup is and goes. It seems a little strange there is such a fixation about something that is so easy to deal with., and about the use of a product that has been used on bees for quite a long time, AND has been shown to work very well...
As always... I am open to a better way. I would LOVE to have a better way!! The one thing I have HATED from my days arguing with the town council, is listening to people throw a fit about something we have, or were doing, WITHOUT offering a "viable" alternative. Give me another product that works as well and I will use it. Until then.. I will continue with Fumagilin B.. Until I see it "harm" my bees, I consider it another RED FOOD COLORING dilema.. Red food coloring causes cancer!! Yes, if you eat MORE than 5 people will in their entire lifetime..
I also consider that using Fumagilin is like using Coumaphos, or Oxalic Acid, etc, etc... If you have no common sense then you probably shouldnt use any of it, because it will ALL hurt you.

pistolpete · « **Reply #39 on:** February 16, 2015, 12:51:49 am »

On a related topic: I have a bottle of fumagilin sitting in my cupboard. I meant to treat preventatively in the fall, but did not get around to it. Is there much benefit to feeding them some when the weather warms up? I've never actually had problems with nosema, but my understanding is that it's present in pretty much all hives and is a stressor on the bees with our very long winters.