Thoughts on splits

[Slowmodem]

I got to thinking about this when I was reading the thread on nucs.  I can take some brood frames and shake the bees off, put them above a queen excluder, put the box back on the hive and wait a few days.  In theory, some of the nurse bees will go up to the top box, and the queen, workers, and remaining nurse bees will stay on the bottom.  Then I should be able to move the top box and have a split.

What I was thinking was, what if I moved the bottom box several feet away (I don't have any other bee yards), but left them closed up for a couple of days.  My thinking is that when I let them out, some of them will reorient to the new location, and maybe some of them will return to the old location.  Am I off base here?  What if I didn't close them up?  Would ALL the foragers return to the original location?  If so, what would that do to the box that was moved?  There's the topic for the day.   

Edit:  Oh, if they swarmed around April 12th last year, do you think this is early enough to prevent swarming this year?

[camero7]

I got to thinking about this when I was reading the thread on nucs.  I can take some brood frames and shake the bees off, put them above a queen excluder, put the box back on the hive and wait a few days.  In theory, some of the nurse bees will go up to the top box, and the queen, workers, and remaining nurse bees will stay on the bottom.  Then I should be able to move the top box and have a split.

You only have to wait about an hour or two, nurse bees will be all over the brood. I make all my nucs in this fashion. Saves me hunting for the queen. Only move about 2-3 frames up, space them wide so lots of bees have room to move in. Then slide them together and place frames on the outsides of the nest. I would get a cell or a queen and introduce her to the top box, after I removed it.

Almost all the foragers will return to the original location. Also you run the real risk of overheating in the closed up hive.

the bottom box will be pretty weak.

[tbonekel]

You could always try the grass or tree branch against the opening method. I moved a hive about 50 feet once and put a small branch in front of the entrance. Seemed to work pretty well. At the original location, there was a small cluster of bees, but not much.

[Slowmodem]

Also you run the real risk of overheating in the closed up hive.

the bottom box will be pretty weak.

I had considered that.  But with the temperatures in the 40s for the lows and the 70s for the highs, I figured they could ventilate the hive ok, especially with screened bottom boards.

Plus, I have two boxes of syrup/honey that I had planned on putting on each split so they would have provisions for those days.  (I really don't want to extract syrup).

[Slowmodem]

You could always try the grass or tree branch against the opening method. I moved a hive about 50 feet once and put a small branch in front of the entrance. Seemed to work pretty well. At the original location, there was a small cluster of bees, but not much.

I thought about that, too.  I guess I was hoping that maybe some of the foragers would go to the new box and some would stay with the old box.  I'm trying to get the most bang for the buck, I suppose.  It should be an interesting endeavor, though.

[Lburou]

Slowmodem, if you changed a couple little things in your plan it could be an artificial swarm, a proven procedure that works.  There is some variety in written procedures for the artificial swarm, but the idea is basically the same.  Look here or here for some reading on artificial swarms.   HTH   

[gtrr4]

So how do you know when you have enough bees in the hive to make a split?  This is my second year as a beekeeper and first year I can make a split.

[iddee]

Whatever size the hive, you should have enough bees to cover all frames in the mother hive when the split is finished.

[Bakersdozen]

So how do you know when you have enough bees in the hive to make a split?  This is my second year as a beekeeper and first year I can make a split.

In addition to the number of bees in the colony, you need to consider how much brood is in the box as well.  Leave the parent colony with the equivalent of 3 frames of brood in early April.  In late April, leave the equivalent of 5 frames of brood. This works in my part of the country.  Sometimes you will want to gather frames of brood from 2 or more hives.  In the nuc, place a frame of honey on the outside, 3 frames of brood in various stages in the middle and a frame with pollen.  And, of course your queen in the cage along with nurse bees.  This is a pretty simplified description and there are probably more detailed descriptions elsewhere in the forum.

[Slowmodem]

Whatever size the hive, you should have enough bees to cover all frames in the mother hive when the split is finished.

Is that in the day without foragers, or in the evening when everybody's home?

[tbonekel]

I would do it during the day. That way, if you shake bees into the nuc or split, there is a better chance of them being nurse bees. All or most of the foragers are out.  You will then have a better idea of the amount of bees you will have in the nuc taking care of brood.

[Bakersdozen]

I agree with tbone.  When you actually do this split, I would do it on a nice sunny day when all the foragers are out.

[apisbees]

By bringing open brood that is being fed the bees will be nurse bees and will not have taken their orientation flight so they will stay with the brood when it is moved. Be aware of the daily low temperatures over the following days after making and talking away the split as these cool temps will cause the bees to abandon brood as the cluster shrinks to maintain the cluster temperature.

[Slowmodem]

I understand about doing the splits during the day.  What I was asking about was having enough bees to cover all the frames.  Is that including the foragers or only counting nurse bees?

I have been thinking about the temperatures.  I may wait a week or two before doing the split.  It's nice now, but it's supposed to be cooler later in the week and early next week (lows 30s and 40s and highs in the 50s.)  I'd hate to split and then have them stressed with cold.

[iddee]

All frames are not brood. If you have enough bees to cover all frames, you will have enough house bees to cover the brood frames.

[Slowmodem]

All frames are not brood. If you have enough bees to cover all frames, you will have enough house bees to cover the brood frames.

Got it. Thanks!