Weak winter hive

[gtrr4]

Had my first chance to get into the hives today and my strongest hive last year is struggling.  I saw the queen, about 2 dozen capped brood, and about 100 bees.  There may be more out foraging.  I am worried about losing this hive.  Is there anything I can do?  There are still some nights coming that will be down to freezing.     Can I pull a frame of bees (no brood or larvae), from a stronger hive to help with some nightly clustering?

[Jen]

My education to date would say Yes! you can add brood to your week hive    just make darned sure that the queen isn't on any of the frames you add 

[iddee]

I would say no. If you pull a frame with no brood, the bees will be mostly foragers, or older bees. They will kill the strange queen. It would be better to pull a frame of brood. There would be more house bees. Walk a few feet away from the hive for 2 or 3 minutes and let the older bees leave it and fly home. Then add it. The younger bees are more likely to accept the strange queen you put them with. Some of the brood may chill and die, but they should be able to cover most of it and the additional eggs the queen lays when she has more bees to cover them.

[Jen]

gtrr4, "(no brood or larvae)" I read over this part, so go with Iddee 

[gtrr4]

I was able t reach out to local beekeeper and said to pull a frame with bees and no brood, so some older bees.  But to spray\mist sugar water on them to elimante the old hives pheromones.  Then put this week hive above the strong hive with a solid bottom board.  The bottom board would have a 4" x 8" hole to allow heat transfer covered on both sides with #8 hardware clothe.  Thoughts on this?

[iddee]

Too much work.   

[gtrr4]

For me its worth it.  First year I had 100% loss, this year I am at 50% loss, only have e left you including this weak hive.  So if I can save it I am willing to try.  Just looking for the best option.

[camero7]

with a laying queen and some brood I'd be tempted to just put some feed on it and a pollen supplement patty. They should be ok since you're much warmer that we are. I'm doing that with my nucs right now.

[riverbee]

gt,
struggling hive with a queen that's not laying well, 2 dozen capped brood, 100 bees, not counting the foragers, and you don't want to lose it. doesn't sound good. pinch the failing queen, pick a strong hive, and combine what's left of it (newspaper method) with a stronger hive. 

sometimes we have to make decisions that we don't like.  sometimes combining may affect another colony as well. my only concern on combining are your temps?

[rwlaw]

Ya, I agree with riverbee. I wouldn't do anything to jeopardize your stronger hives. This time of year hive populations are at a critical stage in the north, given that the overwintered bees are getting worn out foraging and dying off, also at your latitude I'm thinking it'd be iffy if your second full brood cycle is emerging yet. If they get chilled because you donated some of the covering bees then it's a snowball effect on that hive.

[Garden Hive]

Struggling hives are always a roll of the dice. You have nothing to lose but the puney hive!
With that said. You risk the queen, if you add frame with no brood. I've tried and had some success with removing them as a nuc into a nuc box. But that would be not disturbing the frames. You have already done this by your inspection. So that doesn't matter. You can take the brood nest area and the best frames from anything else(stored feed) and put them into a nuc. The smaller area is good. Use an entrance reducer to very small.

Or just leave them alone as they are and reduce the entrance ! Check and feed as needed !

[pturley]

I agree with Garden Hive.  Reduce the area, but also wrap the nuc.  We still have some cold nights to deal with.

Last spring, I ended up with one small cluster of bees about the size of a softball.   They pulled through and ended up as two well stocked double deep colonies by last fall.  Both these are active now (I'll stop crossing my fingers when I see dandelions!).

[gtrr4]

Update-
The process I tried has seemed to work, seeing more capped brood, eggs and larvae.  Plenty of activity at the entrance and pollen coming in.  So now I am wondering, since I moved this hive a couple feet and on top of another hive (entrance opposite of its original position)  I was not to worried about their orientation.  Now that it is warmer and they are now foraging, when I go to remove it off of colony it is on, do I have to worry about their orientation?  Can I move it back to its original location or move it to a new site?

[LazyBkpr]

I agree,,, with a combination of what Iddee said and Garden Hive..   I would have reduced their space and given them some brood and young bees.
   I have NUC's to pull the resources from, so I dont have to compromise my stronger production hives for this.
   I am curious what purpose giving them a frame of no brood serves?  Why not just give them a good shake of nurse bees?   The more bees you have the more eggs the queen will lay, and vice versa..  I understand that part, but I also would wonder, if your going to GIVE them extra bees, why would you do it without giving them the brood as well?  Capped brood will emerge soon, and they will see this hive as their own, they will greatly strengthen the hive, and as mentioned above, the more bees, the more the queen will lay...
   THEN, when I had them on the road to recovery, I would re queen them.  There is a reason they are weak.

[gtrr4]

I was told that I didnt want to take eggs/capped brood from the strong hives, this could potentially weaken them.  By just adding the field bees, this was just to help keep the weak colony survive the then upcoming cold nights by adding some bees to help with clustering.  Now that it is warmer, I was thinking of taking some capped brood from the other 2 stronger hives and adding.

[LazyBkpr]

I was told that I didnt want to take eggs/capped brood from the strong hives, this could potentially weaken them.  By just adding the field bees, this was just to help keep the weak colony survive the then upcoming cold nights by adding some bees to help with clustering.  Now that it is warmer, I was thinking of taking some capped brood from the other 2 stronger hives and adding.

  I would completely agree. It DOES weaken the hive you take that brood from. the decision has to be made if your willing to give up that wee bit of loss to a good strong hive to save a weak one. I dont think they EVER actually recover, because the hives growth is exponential, BUT, the time usually comes when you NEED to reduce their strength a bit or they will swarm. You can do it early or late, the only time you cant do it is TOO late..