Lots of drone comb?

[ledifni]

So, I did an inspection and rearrangement of my hive today (which did not please the ladies, thank you very much).   I had a lot to do to prepare for the package coming in, including moving every frame in the brood nest to a brand-new box so I can use the homey-smelling box from this hive for the hive body on the new hive.  In the process, I noticed something -- almost half of most of the brood frames are drone comb full of capped drone brood.  There's also regular worker brood, but I'm worried about seeing so much drone brood.  Do they really need that much?

My thoughts are:

1) The queen is getting low on sperm and should possibly be replaced.  Or,
2) This is a natural part of spring buildup.

I'm not sure which.  I see a lot of articles talking about hives raising lots of drone brood in spring if left to their own devices.  I also see a lot of articles about removing drone comb and/or requeening if there is too much of it.  Any thoughts from the people here?

[pistolpete]

In a completely natural hive, 15 to 20% of the brood is drones.  That's how the colony gets to propagate their genetics.   In a managed hive that has been supplied with worker size foundation only the transitional cells around the bottom edge of the frames get turned into drone cells.   This results in less than 5% of the brood being drones.  The bees don't like this imbalance and any damaged comb or burr comb gets built drone cell size.  Also any foundationless frames that are added will be drawn entirely in drone comb.

  Yes, spring is when the bees like to raise the most drones, but it should not be anywhere near 50%.  Re-queening would be my first thought.   I re-queen all my hives every spring, so I have never run into this scenario personally.   Perhaps someone else will have some thoughts.  Maybe post a picture.

[ledifni]

Oh and just a random addition -- for my trouble today i got stung in the face.  Right under my eye.  Luckily it isn't swelling

[ledifni]

In a completely natural hive, 15 to 20% of the brood is drones.  That's how the colony gets to propagate their genetics.   In a managed hive that has been supplied with worker size foundation only the transitional cells around the bottom edge of the frames get turned into drone cells.   This results in less than 5% of the brood being drones.  The bees don't like this imbalance and any damaged comb or burr comb gets built drone cell size.  Also any foundationless frames that are added will be drawn entirely in drone comb.

  Yes, spring is when the bees like to raise the most drones, but it should not be anywhere near 50%.  Re-queening would be my first thought.   I re-queen all my hives every spring, so I have never run into this scenario personally.   Perhaps someone else will have some thoughts.  Maybe post a picture.

Yeah I'm considering re-queening.  I hate to do it because she's such an amazing queen, but it might be necessary.  And I tend to think her daughters will be equally amazing.

[Jen]

Pete, that's some good information you added   

Led, do you know how old your queen is?

And what is it about this queen that you admire?

How many hives do you have?

For me, I'm not as apt to off a queen if she is laying a good pattern. Last year I was in my hives every week or two weeks trying to learn as much as I could. It was a phenomenal learning year for me. One week, I pulled a frame, and in just a couple weeks time that frame was almost 100% drones. Took pics, ran to the forum. Some said that was way too many drones. Iddee said wait two more weeks or so. I did. When I went back in, believe it or not, they were all gone, and there were dead drones on the ground.

I have a notion that the bees go thru teaching phases. Like when you get into the hive and you find 10-20 empty queen cells. Or, like you finding an overload of drone cells. I wonder if the older bees are teaching the younger bees how to 'make stuff' that will possible be needed later.

Also, we have had a very long spring, my mother hive has lots of dead drones in front of the hive. I'll try and remember to get a pic tomorrow.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, if it were me, I would check again in a week, and then check again in another week. A lot can change in two weeks.

[ledifni]

Led, do you know how old your queen is?

No idea.  She was a queen from a trap out, so no way to guess.

And what is it about this queen that you admire?

1) Almost no mites.  Hygienic queen, obviously.
2) She built a nearly dead hive into a good strong cluster that overwintered beautifully in just about a month last fall.  I find that impressive.

How many hives do you have?

Right now?  Just this one.  All the more reason I want to carry on these amazing genetics

I guess what I'm trying to say is, if it were me, I would check again in a week, and then check again in another week. A lot can change in two weeks.

I figure I'll give them a week at least to see what happens   If I'm not seeing lots of worker brood by then I'll probably re-queen the hive from some of her own eggs.

[Jen]

Sounds like a good plan 

[tbonekel]

Hey, led, I feel you pain. I have several foundationless frames in one of my hives and they have created tons of drone brood. The worker brood that is in the hive is really an awesome pattern, almost solid so in the past I have like this queen. Yesterday, I saw lots of queen and swarm cells so I don't know if they are just overcrowded or they are getting tired of drones and getting rid of the queen. The advice currently is to remove some of those swarm cell frames and create some nucs. It's raining today and I hope there will be a break and I'm going to do that. Good luck and when you check back, maybe things will be better.

[pistolpete]

for the most part, the queen does not decide how many drones there are.  The worker bees decide by how many drone cells they build.  The queen measures the size of the cell before she lays the egg and drops a non fertilised one in the larger cells.   When the queen starts to run out of sperm, you will get drones in worker cells, with bullet shaped caps over top.

[tbonekel]

That makes a lot of sense pistol. Thanks.

[Jen]

Pete- "When the queen starts to run out of sperm, you will get drones in worker cells, with bullet shaped caps over top.

     I've seen plenty of that in my hives.
 
     Led did mention that he has no idea how old the queen is, that could explain that she may be getting past her prime, the bountiful drone could explain that. Or, I have learned that the queen may not have had a successful mating, in that maybe she didn't get enough sperm during mating in the first place.

[ledifni]

Well, I waited a week and checked again...this time there are a few more fully drawn frames (I added some undrawn frames around the brood nest to give her more room) and each of them is full of a rock-solid pattern of worker brood.  I wonder if some of those other frames (a lot of it is old comb from another hive) were just overly filled with drone cells?  In any case, I'm not worried any more.  They have a good-sized brood nest (about 8 full frames worth) and they're packing their new medium with nectar.  I'm not going to feed any more this year, I doubt they need it

I do see numerous queen cups, none of them in use but still makes me wonder if they're playing around with the idea of swarming.  I'll have to keep a close eye on them.

[riverbee]

led, where did you place the undrawn foundation that are now drawn and full of brood, when you first put these frames in?

where are your queen cups located?

[ledifni]

led, where did you place the undrawn foundation that are now drawn and full of brood, when you first put these frames in?

On the outer sides of the upper brood nest (two frames of brood between, brood in about four and a half frames below).

where are your queen cups located?

Mostly around the bottoms of the frames, but there are a few at the edges, where there are gaps between the comb and the side of the frame.