Author Topic: varroa mites (Read 21362 times)

LazyBkpr · « **Reply #20 on:** April 17, 2015, 09:30:55 am »

I do not "believe" ppete is right, but that does not mean I am right either.. From everything I have read, watched and heard, OAV is benign/harmless to the bees. So I would like to see some data? Some research? Anything that states what he just did? I do believe OAV is a magic bullet..

OA Dribble is MOST definitely not a magic bullet, it damages the bees because they ingest it;

Do not be in the “If a little’s good, a lot would be better” mentality with oxalic. It (drench) can be rough if over applied to the winter cluster, and is rough on the brood in the summer colony. However, be aware that most other treatments also affect the brood (amitraz, formic, thymol), queens (coumaphos), or drones (fluvalinate).

But as stated, I have yet to find any reference to problems the OA vapor causes the bees?? In some of the studies they treated bees every week for three months and they showed no ill effects what so ever. If the OAV harmed bees or brood wouldnt being treated so often have wiped out the colony hands down? Much less left them mite free and thriving?

From Randy Olivers site;
Radetzki didn’t note increased bee mortality after winter treatment. Heinz Kaemmerer of Heilyser Technology Ltd. says: “We treated several colonies for 3 months during winter, once a week with the vaporizer and all colonies survived.” “With brood, colonies can be treated with the right amount of OA 3 to 4 times, a week apart; there is no harm to bees, queen or brood.” Medhat Nasr confirms that vaporized oxalic is very gentle to the bees.

It is good to know if what you are doing has risks. I have not found any for OAV Yet.. I have seen other statements that claim how "bad" OAV is, both for the beekeeper, and the bees, and so far they have all been pretty easy to disprove through researching.... That does not mean I am right and OAV is the golden ticket. It only means I have not found (or seen) any concrete evidence to that claim. Entirely possible since some information comes from people who have a vested interest in OAV being a good thing.

Ray4852 · « **Reply #21 on:** April 17, 2015, 10:25:05 am »

The only concern I have with oxalic acid. Its very corrosive. Will it destroy my screen bottom board or eat away at the nail heads on my frames. I protect myself with an N-95 mask. I can treat at any time when the temp is above 40 degrees. My opinion its the best product to treat for mites right now. It works if you know how to use it the right way.

CpnObvious · « **Reply #22 on:** April 17, 2015, 10:27:01 am »

Quote from: Ray4852 on April 16, 2015, 09:01:04 am

Marion
look at the date on your formic pads. If there out of date don’t use it. You can harm your queen.

Ray,

I posted some info last year about MAQS. I had spoken to the manufacturer and they informed me that the MAQS pads are labelled for 1 year... BUT, if you freeze them, they will last for years. She compared them to candy bars, oddly enough. I believe Marion had commented in that thread... hopefully she remembered to freeze them. However, also according to the manufacturer, the only downside to them aging NOT in the freezer is that the potency dissipates, they said nothing about becoming harmful to the queen. It is common for the queen to stop laying for a few days with the introduction of MAQS into the hive, but have you smelled the stuff? I don't recommend it! I'd stop laying, in protest, if someone made my house smell like that! BTW, don't try it... it burns your nose and can't possibly be good for you!

riverbee · « **Reply #23 on:** April 17, 2015, 11:04:20 am »

i am not dishing OAV scott, i guess it depends on how one defines a magic bullet. it's just my opinion, any chemicals we use to treat mites with is not a magic or a silver bullet, because we have to keep treating the bees with whatever chemical, and when the mites develop resistance to one, we move to another.

Randy Oliver ~ IPM 1 Fighting Varroa 1: The Silver Bullet, or Brass Knuckles?

Ray4852 · « **Reply #24 on:** April 17, 2015, 11:13:18 am »

I wanted to order a year supply from betterbee. They told me don’t use it past the expiration date. At my bee club meeting. We had a few ask the same question. They told us don’t use it past the date. It could harm the queen. This stuff will burn your eyes and lungs. I wear safety classes and an N-95 mask. Formic acid and oxalic acid is very dangerous stuff to use. You have to protect yourself when you use it.

CpnObvious · « **Reply #25 on:** April 17, 2015, 11:22:05 am »

Ray,

Your club and supplier weren't wrong in advising you incorrectly... I'm assuming simply repeating what they were told. I had (accidentally) placed my oversized order from Mann Lake. When I was working with them over the phone, their information was also limited. I needed further clarification of a few things that I just wasn't sure of or didn't understand, so I called the Manufacturer. I had an incredibly helpful & informative conversation with them. It was well worth the call... Especially considering I ordered WAAAAY more than I apparently needed!

Marion · « **Reply #26 on:** April 17, 2015, 01:13:30 pm »

No, I did not freeze it, so the treatment may not be as effective as it should. I've had it since the fall. The package was sealed in its cellophane inside its plastic tub in the dark. It still had a serious odor you do not want to breathe. I think I may have treated just in time because the bees have just started bringing in pollen and I did not see any eggs or larva in there. I doubt if I will be using these MAQS strips again. I don't like stopping the queen from her doing her business and I definitely do not want to harm her.

Perry · « **Reply #27 on:** April 17, 2015, 01:18:50 pm »

Not all queens stop when it is applied. I would not totally give up on the product, just consider it as one of the arsenal of choice in your IPM strategy. Using the same thing over and over is where problems can start. I like Pistolpete's analogy that mites with hardened shells will be the only ones surviving to breed if OA is used repeatedly. Mix it up as much as you can.

Jen · « **Reply #28 on:** April 17, 2015, 03:47:55 pm »

Ray- "Formic acid and oxalic acid is very dangerous stuff to use. You have to protect yourself when you use it.

Does this mean we have to stop eating all these foods, because they all have oxalic acid in them...

http://healthyonraw.com/should-we-eat-greens-high-in-oxalic-acid/

CpnObvious · « **Reply #29 on:** April 17, 2015, 04:38:39 pm »

Marion, where did you order it from. I've been looking around and the first few places I found have nearly a month long lead time!

Marion · « **Reply #30 on:** April 17, 2015, 05:20:27 pm »

Cpnobvious, I ordered the oxalic acid from amazon.com. It is 99% pure and I used the link above that Jenn provided. I bought one pound.

CpnObvious · « **Reply #31 on:** April 17, 2015, 05:43:48 pm »

And the vaporizer?

Marion · « **Reply #32 on:** April 17, 2015, 06:03:41 pm »

The vaporizer was from a site called OxaVap. It was $125. Unfortunately, the actual web site did not print out on the receipt, but if you google it you should find it without a problem. It might still be in my emails. I'll look.

Perry, good advice about mixing it up with the treatments. I think the MAQS strips would be better in the fall and the vapor in the spring.

Marion · « **Reply #33 on:** April 17, 2015, 06:05:50 pm »

The site is oxavap.com.

Ray4852 · « **Reply #34 on:** April 17, 2015, 06:29:27 pm »

Jen

oxalic acid vapor is very dangerous to our health if we don’t protect our self when we work with it. The good lord gave me one set of lungs. When there gone I’m done or carry and oxygen tank around with me. N-95 paper mask is the smart way working with this stuff. Its cheaper to buy the mask than see a doctor. Work safe.

Marion

I bought 5lbs from ebay for 15 dollars.

Lburou · « **Reply #35 on:** April 17, 2015, 08:34:38 pm »

While we are touching the subject of MAQS treatments, does anyone have any experience with one strip applications (meaning, a half dose to knock down a mite population until a better time to treat)?

In my view, a queen's genetics relative to mite tolerance or hygienic activities is the best first line of defense against varroatosis. My view will treat mites and change queens until I get to the point that no further treatment is necessary, all the time using IPM principles. I do not ever plan to use fluvalinate, coumaphos or any other synthetic insecticide in my hives. Not saying that is what you should do, just my view on the subject.

I grafted from a VSH breeder queen last year. The colonies headed by the F-1 daughters of that breeder queen have very low mite counts (so far), the others aren't far behind. I trust mite counts using powdered sugar or alcohol rolls and not mite drops. The last early spring roll we did had 458 bees and five mites.

Keep posting Marion, I enjoy seeing and hearing your progress. :-)

LazyBkpr · « **Reply #36 on:** April 17, 2015, 08:52:08 pm »

Evaporation of oxalic acid - a safe method for the user?;

Result; All measurements clearly underneath exposure limit.

Based upon the presented data, a commercial apiarist could use oxalic acid treatments during the whole year, 40 hours a week without damaging his health.

The above statements can be found in the PDF Document found at;

www.agroscope.admin.ch/imkerei/00316/00329/02081/index.html?lang=en

I can only assume that means wearing a mask like Ray4852 mentions..

I am not against anyone dicing OAV Mrs. River.. But when they do I would like to see the reasons/research that made them dislike it and recommend against using it, if nothing else for my own safety and concerns.. At this point most of what I have read places a big glowing halo over it as a treatment..
As far as Varroa building immunity... as I understand.. it kills the mites or they dont get it on/in them it penetrates soft body parts, joints etc.. If they dont get it on/in they dont die, if they do they do die, so they cant build any type of immunity....... JUST what I have read... I have read some negative things, but so far, none of those negative things have been backed up by any of the research, which is quite unusual in the world of beekeeping... I am expecting sooner or later the silver bullet will be proven to have a lead core.

riverbee · « **Reply #37 on:** April 17, 2015, 11:12:19 pm »

" I am not against anyone dicing OAV Mrs. River.. But when they do I would like to see the reasons/research that made them dislike it and recommend against using it, if nothing else for my own safety and concerns.. At this point most of what I have read places a big glowing halo over it as a treatment.."

i am not against it scott, and didn't 'dice' it. i agreed with pete because of what he said, and tend to think as he said, that in time oxalic acid will follow along the path of the history of mite treatments.............the mites at some point will most likely develop a resistance to it, then what?

and to what lee said,

"In my view, a queen's genetics relative to mite tolerance or hygienic activities is the best first line of defense against varroatosis. My view will treat mites and change queens until I get to the point that no further treatment is necessary, all the time using IPM principles. I do not ever plan to use fluvalinate, coumaphos or any other synthetic insecticide in my hives."

LazyBkpr · « **Reply #38 on:** April 17, 2015, 11:14:10 pm »

I understand.., that was a reply to this post in part..;

Quote from: riverbee on April 17, 2015, 11:04:20 am

i am not dishing OAV scott, i guess it depends on how one defines a magic bullet. it's just my opinion, any chemicals we use to treat mites with is not a magic or a silver bullet, because we have to keep treating the bees with whatever chemical, and when the mites develop resistance to one, we move to another.

Randy Oliver ~ IPM 1 Fighting Varroa 1: The Silver Bullet, or Brass Knuckles?

riverbee · « **Reply #39 on:** April 18, 2015, 12:01:01 am »

okay i give scott.

never said i disliked OAV. never discouraged anyone from using it or not recommended the use of it. i have never used it, and never wore a mask to a apply it........

it's simple...mite treatments alone, irregardless of what we use are not a magic or silver bullet, and at some point, i do think there is a possiblitly that the mites will become resistant to it, as with other treatments.

sorry, i guess i am missing the point?