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Offline crazy8days

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Re: Excluders
« Reply #20 on: April 19, 2015, 01:38:32 pm »
With all the different types of excluders out there which one is mostly used?  I have the all metal type. 
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Offline sc-bee

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Re: Excluders
« Reply #21 on: April 19, 2015, 02:20:13 pm »
Quote from: tecumseh on April 19, 2015, 07:16:57 am
I pretty much use excluder (in the specific use of rearing a honey crop) much in the same way described in Jerry Hayes very dated article 'is a queen excluder a honey excluder'.   How I place new space above the excluder is largely dependent on whether I am have comb or foundation in the box added.  this pretty much describes how I do things >

a riverbee snip...

'you could also consider placing the undrawn super on first, (without excluder), when its drawn, place excluder back on and add your additional drawn super as needed.'


I goggled and found the link... it was written long before my beekeeping days. In my time period I have never heard Jerry speak on anything but AHB. An interesting read and it seems the one limited study pointed in the direction that queen excluders are honey excluders if not used properly. Thanks for the direct tecumseh.

I have posted a link for easy reference:  http://www.beesource.com/point-of-view/jerry-hayes/queen-excluder-or-honey-excluder/
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Offline ledifni

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Re: Excluders
« Reply #22 on: April 19, 2015, 02:36:02 pm »
Well, in the end I decided not to use a queen excluder.  They're pretty solidly filling the frames in the top box with nectar, so I figure she won't pass that to get to the supers.  I'm not taking that top box anyway, so as long as she doesn't go any higher I think I'm okay.
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Offline sc-bee

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Re: Excluders
« Reply #23 on: April 19, 2015, 03:18:10 pm »
Quote from: ledifni on April 19, 2015, 02:36:02 pm
Well, in the end I decided not to use a queen excluder.  They're pretty solidly filling the frames in the top box with nectar, so I figure she won't pass that to get to the supers.  I'm not taking that top box anyway, so as long as she doesn't go any higher I think I'm okay.

Well not meaning to hi-jack this thread but...it goes like this.

Option one- If she needs the space and there is space in the next box she will go there. Good thing as I see it, because I don't worry about brood in my honey supers etc. I run free roaming queens. I just let the brood hatch or do not extract frames with brood. I leave them. I realize some folks freak out about the cocoon in honey issue, it will separate itself if left standing. I know I am about to come under fire but the things you find in a beehive, and also we all know the ph of the honey factor. Have you ever seen the left over of a chain uncapper???

Second option she has plenty space below ...so you are ok.

Third option and most likely if you really don't stay on top of it- She needs the space. She does not cross to the top or the top is crammed with honey. The bees see the ceiling, they begin to run out of room, backfill the brood chamber, and too the trees they go >:(  My point is watch the brood nest and keep it open and expanding.
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Offline iddee

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Re: Excluders
« Reply #24 on: April 19, 2015, 03:30:22 pm »
Good post, SC. That's why I don't use excluders.
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Offline ledifni

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Re: Excluders
« Reply #25 on: April 19, 2015, 03:47:12 pm »
Quote from: sc-bee on April 19, 2015, 03:18:10 pm
Well not meaning to hi-jack this thread but...it goes like this.

Option one- If she needs the space and there is space in the next box she will go there. Good thing as I see it, because I don't worry about brood in my honey supers etc. I run free roaming queens. I just let the brood hatch or do not extract frames with brood. I leave them. I realize some folks freak out about the cocoon in honey issue, it will separate itself if left standing. I know I am about to come under fire but the things you find in a beehive, and also we all know the ph of the honey factor. Have you ever seen the left over of a chain uncapper???

Second option she has plenty space below ...so you are ok.

Third option and most likely if you really don't stay on top of it- She needs the space. She does not cross to the top or the top is crammed with honey. The bees see the ceiling, they begin to run out of room, backfill the brood chamber, and too the trees they go >:(  My point is watch the brood nest and keep it open and expanding.

Well I think she has plenty of space.  Two brood boxes, both mostly full of brood frames.  The top box (third box, that is) is mostly nectar.
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Offline efmesch

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Re: Excluders
« Reply #26 on: April 19, 2015, 04:55:07 pm »
CapnObvious asks: (in post #3)
 SO how do you get them to build foundationless, or build out foundation, in a honey super if you don't want to risk her highness laying in there? 

Beware of trying to get foundationless combs built in a honey super-----it can almost be guaranteed to be built as drone comb.  If you want to be sure that you get worker combs built foundationlessly, the job must be done in the brood box.  In other words, if you want frames built in a honey super with worker cells, you must use worker cell foundation  or else have them built in the brood box.     

Like it or not, the only way you can be (almost) positive that the queen won't lay in your honey super is if you use a queen excluder.
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Offline sc-bee

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Re: Excluders
« Reply #27 on: April 19, 2015, 05:06:14 pm »
Quote from: ledifni on April 19, 2015, 03:47:12 pm
Quote from: sc-bee on April 19, 2015, 03:18:10 pm
Well not meaning to hi-jack this thread but...it goes like this.

Option one- If she needs the space and there is space in the next box she will go there. Good thing as I see it, because I don't worry about brood in my honey supers etc. I run free roaming queens. I just let the brood hatch or do not extract frames with brood. I leave them. I realize some folks freak out about the cocoon in honey issue, it will separate itself if left standing. I know I am about to come under fire but the things you find in a beehive, and also we all know the ph of the honey factor. Have you ever seen the left over of a chain uncapper???

Second option she has plenty space below ...so you are ok.

Third option and most likely if you really don't stay on top of it- She needs the space. She does not cross to the top or the top is crammed with honey. The bees see the ceiling, they begin to run out of room, backfill the brood chamber, and too the trees they go >:(  My point is watch the brood nest and keep it open and expanding.

Well I think she has plenty of space.  Two brood boxes, both mostly full of brood frames.  The top box (third box, that is) is mostly nectar.

Actually the comment was directed in your direction... I am old but did not see you reference the number of boxes but then again you were not the OP right ;) And you may have it all taken care off.  No harm intended...
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Offline caesarsfish

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Re: Excluders
« Reply #28 on: April 20, 2015, 09:29:56 am »
I do not use full time excluders.  When it is time to take the honey and I find larva in the supers I will put an empty frame in the brood box an install an excluder under the super until the larva hatches.  This seems to work for me.
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Offline sc-bee

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Re: Excluders
« Reply #29 on: April 20, 2015, 11:15:11 am »
My mentor does not run excluders, probably is why I have never bothered. He pulls his supers and while extracting he removes any frames with brood he finds and places them in a box near the window of the honey house that the bees brought in with the supers use an an escape. He continues to add to the stray brood frames to the boxes as season progresses. More times than not the bees raise a queen and he ends up with another hive :)
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Offline Les

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Re: Excluders
« Reply #30 on: April 20, 2015, 04:16:51 pm »
""I goggled and found the link... it was written long before my beekeeping days. In my time period I have never heard Jerry speak on anything but AHB. An interesting read and it seems the one limited study pointed in the direction that queen excluders are honey excluders if not used properly. Thanks for the direct tecumseh.

I have posted a link for easy reference:  http://www.beesource.com/point-of-view/jerry-hayes/queen-excluder-or-honey-excluder/""




SC-Bee this was a great article, thanks for digging it up.
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Offline tecumseh

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Re: Excluders
« Reply #31 on: April 21, 2015, 06:28:31 am »
a snip...
it was written long before my beekeeping days...

yes but not before some of us begin playing with bees.  I do seem to recall Jerry used his initial on that article and it took me quite some time to connect Jerry with Gerald.  I am saddened to have to send you over to BS to find that fine article.  If you read the article closely and reflect on the data in the article a queen excluder if use properly with a top entrance and a closed bottom entrance can also 'marginally' enhance the honey crop and discourage skunk predation.  I should mention here that prior to the time I ran across this old article I largely believed  that a queen excluder was a honey excluder based largely on conversation I had with two of my prior commercial beekeeping employers.
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Offline Perry

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Re: Excluders
« Reply #32 on: April 21, 2015, 06:43:30 am »
Quote from: caesarsfish on April 20, 2015, 09:29:56 am
I do not use full time excluders.  When it is time to take the honey and I find larva in the supers I will put an empty frame in the brood box an install an excluder under the super until the larva hatches.  This seems to work for me.

 :yes: :yes: :yes:

Me too.
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Offline sc-bee

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Re: Excluders
« Reply #33 on: April 21, 2015, 07:22:49 am »
Quote from: tecumseh on April 21, 2015, 06:28:31 am
a snip...
it was written long before my beekeeping days...

yes but not before some of us begin playing with bees.  I do seem to recall Jerry used his initial on that article and it took me quite some time to connect Jerry with Gerald.  I am saddened to have to send you over to BS to find that fine article.  If you read the article closely and reflect on the data in the article a queen excluder if use properly with a top entrance and a closed bottom entrance can also 'marginally' enhance the honey crop and discourage skunk predation.  I should mention here that prior to the time I ran across this old article I largely believed  that a queen excluder was a honey excluder based largely on conversation I had with two of my prior commercial beekeeping employers.

Oh I understand totally. I remember you well from some other forums. A screen name easy to pick up on. My mentor is 85 now and I have been at it only for a short decade in comparison but will not meet you guys years because of a late start :) I nver new Jerry was a Gerald, but have heard him speak multiple time at Clemson meetings. Jerry has always been rather entertaining as compared to most, if that is any comparison. I also like to hear Jamie Ellis.m I think Jamie tool Jerrys place at FSU when Jerry moved over to USDA or Dept of Ag with the AHB thing.

And I understand about the other forum thing.... don't go there often. But someone thanked me for posting the article, but again I thank you for referring to it. I did read it close because I am considering trying some with an upper entrance. I also have a Sundance pollen trap I bought over five years ago that has not been on a hive. The upper entrances would make the conversion easy if I wanted o try it. So I leave you with a question. What kind of top entrance do you use? I am all thumbs with wood work but, what are you shim depths?

Edited- Made a visit and I see it is penned G. W. Hayes Jr.  and looks like he was with or either wrote it for Dadant.  I heard him also say he had worked for I believe FDA as he mentioned visiting third world meat processing plants.
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Offline brooksbeefarm

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Re: Excluders
« Reply #34 on: April 21, 2015, 08:47:58 am »
Hey tec, how would closing the bottom entrance, put a queen excluder above the brood box and a top entrance above the super work for swarm prevention? They would have to really slim the queen down to go anywhere ??? Jack
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Offline iddee

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Re: Excluders
« Reply #35 on: April 21, 2015, 08:53:23 am »
The swarm would leave while you were cleaning out the hundreds of dead drones.   :laugh:   :laugh:






There's one in every crowd  ;D
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Offline brooksbeefarm

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Re: Excluders
« Reply #36 on: April 21, 2015, 08:59:43 am »
Good one iddee, i forgot about the boys. :laugh: Jack
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Offline sc-bee

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Re: Excluders
« Reply #37 on: April 21, 2015, 10:41:05 am »
Quote from: brooksbeefarm on April 21, 2015, 08:59:43 am
Good one iddee, i forgot about the boys. :laugh: Jack

Yep it would work great if everyone did it... no drones to mate with  ;)
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Offline hamptor

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Re: Excluders
« Reply #38 on: April 21, 2015, 11:24:23 am »
So I read the article that sc-bee posted from Jerry Hayes in 1983 about queen excluder/honey excluder.   I'm really curious about using the top entrance.  I have the standard 8 frame medium Langstroth hives with the bottom entrance and screen bottoms.   I read all winter about using a top entrance for ventilation/moisture control.  I can see that a top entrance would help with ventilation in the summer as well.  Those of you who use top entrances, did you drill a hole in the top of a super, or did your hives come that way?  I'm wondering if that is something I should consider doing.  Are there disadvantages I'm not thinking about?
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Offline brooksbeefarm

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Re: Excluders
« Reply #39 on: April 21, 2015, 01:13:19 pm »
I run a bottom and top entrance year round and have for the last 15 to 20 years. 8) I keep a top feeder on all my hives year round also that has a 3/8 in. shim tacked to the bottom of them except for a 1 and a  1/2 in. gap on the front for a top entrance. I'm also getting my hives back to two deep brood boxes where i can put a queen excluder  on top of before i put supers on, this way the workers can go in to the top with nectar and i have found it does increase honey production for me when the flow is on. The only draw back i've had is that you have to keep watch if a drought is on because it can encourage robbers. This is just what i do, and has worked for me, it may not work for you. (Location) Jack
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