Our First Cut Out, Critiques Welcomed

[Springtide]

Let me say at the outset, we were way out of our depth. But we persisted. Got a FB message from Adam last week about a cut out in Yarmouth County NS Canada. We agreed to go look at it, had geared up a bee vac last September, so probably the best equipped local beekeepers and the most adventurous, although we are fairly new at it. So, the house itself was in pretty hard shape (absentee slumlord owner) and was rat infested to boot. We were dealing with the tenant/caretaker who was a super nice guy. The hive itself was about 12 feet off the ground, in the eave of the story and a half house. From the bees' point of view it was a perfect location, a stream about 40 feet away, lots of forage around, etc. We agreed to do it for free, for the experience, with the understanding that we weren't responsible for the patching up afterward. It turned out to be a much bigger job than we expected, probably had been there for years, or it was a swarm that had moved into a previous hive by the look of some of the (dark) comb. I should have taken a picture of the loaded up trailer of equipment we brought, including 2 ladders, but I started out taking a lot of pictures and then got busy and took fewer. We think there was another part of the hive still in the wall that we couldn't get to, without totally dismantling the corner. If you look at the pics, there were several gaps in the boards leading deeper in to the roof, so we did the best we could, removed all that we could see. Didn't see the queen, took 2 huge pieces of comb out that were way too big for our Lang deep hive so we just put them in the box whole. Some we elastic banded in. We know next time (if we ever do this again) that we need some kind of surface to work on. We made 3 trips in all, had to come home to get an extra box, then back at dusk for the foragers we could get to.
2 questions we had: there seemed to be 2 races of bees in the same hive, lighter ones that look a lot like the bees we got from Perry Brandt, and some very dark almost totally black bees. Any guesses on genetics? And 2) when we got them home a bunch of them were hanging at both entrances (see last pic), why?

[Perry]

First off, the fact that you gave it a go in the first place earns you a gold star in my books!
It seems that the bees try to find homes in some of the most awkward places in a deliberate attempt to make removing them as tedious and difficult as possible. From the first picture I could see that was not going to be easy. The old houses here (100 plus) have so many gaps for bees to run into it isn't funny.
In pic # 6 the configuration of the comb seems all over the place, making it difficult to be able to do any clean cuts of brood comb. The following pic I am not seeing very much brood banded into that frame. There were obvious signs of pollen going in on the bees in the previous pics, did you locate the brood nest?
The bees hanging about on the outside wouldn't concern me too much considering what they just went through.
I will never have more admiration that for anyone doing their first cut-out. Almost always it will prove to be overwhelming, full of second (and third and fourth) guessing, many woulda, shoulda, coulda's, messy beyond belief, eic. etc.
The fact that you took it on and probably saved those bees from what would probably have been an extermination job earns you high marks!

Well done!

[Springtide]

Aw, shucks Perry   , thanks.
The real hero in this story is the unknown exterminator who said to Marc Boudreau (the tenant/caretaker) "I'll do my best to exterminate the rats, but the bees are a different matter. First of all I'll charge you an arm and a leg, and I'll do it if you really insist, but I think you'd be much better off finding a local beekeeper to deal with them." Now, that guy deserves a jar of honey. I'll be talking to Marc in the next few days and I'll try to find out who he is.
To answer your question about the brood nest, yes, we did find two huge pieces of comb with brood on them, those were the two that got put in the bottom of the box, and as I'm typing this I'm saying to myself "Oh Angela, why didn't you elastic band those in frames?" In our defense, we were up on side by side ladders, Mitchell was cutting out the comb and handing it to me and it was falling apart in my hands -- it was all I could do to get down off the ladder and get it in the box. Next time, we'll proceed more slowly. The other problem was no working space -- we got there and there was very little parking (3 apartments, 4 cars and multiple large dogs on a wicked corner lot) and our plan to put the tailgate of the trailer down and use that for a platform went out the window. Next time we will speak up more about needing space to work.
Now, today is the next day and it's pouring rain. What are my options for fixing my mistakes? I've read that you shouldn't really disturb the bees for awhile after a cut out but do I have a choice, or is it already too late (by tomorrow) to fix?

[Bakersdozen]

Wow, Springtide!  That was not a job for the faint of heart.
As for the two different looking types of bees...yes it probably is genetics.  When a queen goes on her mating flights and she mates with various drones the sperm is layered in the spermatheca.  It remains layered not mixed like a cocktail.  As she depletes her life time supply of spermatozoa she begins tapping into different genetic pools.  It is possible to have two different looking types of bees in one colony.  This adds to genetic diversity and is so needed. 

[Les]

Bakersdozen......learned something new about the layering of sperm in the queen.  Very interesting.

[Les]

Springtide.....all I can is woohoo for you.  I am a newbie so the thought of attempting a cut out is on my list of things I would not do.  Good for you and each experience, we all learn lessons.  Thank you for posting your experience.

[Springtide]

Thanks, Bakersdozen, it wasn't only Les that learned something new about mating queens!
And Les, thanks for the encouragement, that's one reason why I come to this board 

[LazyBkpr]

HOOOOLY Smokeronies Batman!!!
   You picked a doozy for your first cut out!!
   WELL DONE!
   I am impressed you did as well as you did. That took some determination!
   
   The problem with a space like that, is that the queen will keep moving back and away, and it is next to impossible to capture her...   Something to consider..  Some Honey B Gone on a rag, and then stuff that rag into the back of the space or rafter, will drive the bees TOWARD you, rather than having them running away into every little nook and canny..
   Good bee suits, means you can work at leisure..  I know it can be difficult with all the bees flying around, but taking your time to rubber band the comb into the frames right side up is important, and can mean the difference between a surviving hive and an empty one when all is said and done.

   Once again, I want to say your fortitude is inspiring! Well done!

[Springtide]

  See, another thing we never even thought of (putting the comb right side up, slaps head). If these bees make it I will be very pleasantly surprised.
So, when I came home from work today I went and sat with them for about half an hour. There was some activity, but keep in mind this was after supper, so probably close to their bedtime. I thought I saw 2 of them coming in with very small pollen baskets, but mostly not. I did see 4 or 5 crawling on the ground which I took as a bad sign, (probably Deformed Wing Virus?). Or, possibly injured by the bee vac? The one I looked at very closely seemed to have one wing bigger than the other...
My next question assumes we missed the queen, or killed her. I should mention that we didn't find much in the way of honey stores. Should I feed them some honey (mine, from another hive)? And how soon can I check to see if they are building queen cells?
My thanks to everyone on this board, you guys are all very positive/supportive 
I'm off to look online for some Honey B Gone for my supplies.

[Perry]

I would feed sugar syrup instead of honey. You may have the queen, you won't know for sure until they settle in. 4 or 5 bees crawling on the ground is not all that unusual, they may be old or got a bit beat up in the fuss. When you see DWV and recognize it for what it is, there is no mistaking it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deformed_wing_virus

[LazyBkpr]

I'm with Perry. I would get some 1/1 syrup to them.

[Springtide]

Thanks guys, I did this shortly after it was suggested, I'm planning to have a deeper look at them on Saturday if not working, that will be a week. Fingers crossed.

[Springtide]

We opened up the hive today, very windy but the wind died down a bit around suppertime. It looked good (sorry ne pics), we must not have gotten the queen, but they had 4 or 5 queen cells, so that made us feel better  Yay! We had done so many things wrong, we were worried.

[LazyBkpr]

Awesomeness..  Glad to hear they are making their own queen. Need pics or we will send Iddee over with his admin paddle!!   

[Springtide]

Update: the cut out bees made it. (I'll give away my age by singing Barry Manilow's Looks Like We Made It  )
As Lazy requested here are pics from our inspection today. We didn't spot the queen, but there was lots of evidence of her presence.

[efmesch]

Your daring is impressive and it looks like it is paying off in the end. 
As you accumulate more and more experience with bees, you'll think back to what you did with this cut-out and say to yourself "I should have done it this way" or "I shouldn't have done it this way", but all told, you did a great job.

Most of all, you should consider this venture as having been a very important and valuable learning experience.  The fact that the hive is still alive and developing is pure bonus. 
Thanks for sharing the experience with us.