Author Topic: Oxalic acid (Read 38534 times)

crazy8days · « **on:** December 30, 2013, 07:15:47 pm »

I'm trying sooo hard not to use anything in my hives. With the big pesticide problem. People going more "organic". I personally selling lip balm at a health food store I want to keep it that way. I've read people having good success with oxalic acid vapor for varroa mites. I've read that it's organic. What are most peoples thoughts?

iddee · « **Reply #1 on:** December 30, 2013, 07:21:00 pm »

My thoughts are.... Never treat before checks. If you don't have a heavy mite load, don't treat.

Back when I treated, I used FGMO and thymol in a fogger. I quit treating 5 or 6 years ago.

crazy8days · « **Reply #2 on:** December 30, 2013, 07:27:13 pm »

So, I take it you don't treat for mites? Now, when you used a fogger, was it a propane fogger like Fatbeemans videos? I agree that checking needs to be done first. That's first. I'm wondering if oxalic can be used in a fogger?

Perry · « **Reply #3 on:** December 30, 2013, 07:32:53 pm »

I don't know about "organic" but it is a natural occurring product (not synthesized), typically found in stuff like spinach and rhubarb.
I have used it in vapour form and it resulted in huge mite drops. Did it save any hives? Well, if you get a huge mite drop the damage has already been done.
If used as a "finisher" in conjunction with a "regular" mite treatment (say formic), it is great in getting most of the mites your regular treatment (95% effective say) may have missed.
It is really only effective during broodless periods, but can be utilized as a mite reduction tool I suppose.

Crofter · « **Reply #4 on:** December 30, 2013, 07:33:30 pm »

I can tell you that it is really cheap compared to other patent methods. Doesnt seem to give any queen mortality or brood damage but it wont go through the cappings like formic acid will. You can do it at any temperature above 40 F. It doesnt accumulate in the wax either. It is approved in Canada but in the US you have to be a bit creative in what you say you are doing when you use it, lol! Here is what my vaprorizer looks like.

It can also be disolved to about 3% in a thin sugar and water solution and sprayed or dribbled between frames of bees. No a fogger wont work!

iddee · « **Reply #5 on:** December 30, 2013, 08:54:51 pm »

Yes, I used a propane fogger when I treated. NO, I don't treat any more.

Jen · « **Reply #6 on:** December 31, 2013, 12:00:06 am »

Iddee- why don't you treat with oxalic anymore?

iddee · « **Reply #7 on:** December 31, 2013, 05:46:25 am »

http://www.guilfordbeekeepers.org/community/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=1590

Wayne Rich, of Sophia, NC began beekeeping sometime in the 1960's as a hobby to have honey for his family and pollinate the family farm. He only knew what the older local beeks taught him and what he learned from experience. He never medicated a hive in any way. He had the normal die off and the normal swarm catches that were common in those days. By 1987, he had approx. twenty five hives. When the mites showed up he lost all but one hive. That hive survived and begin casting swarms. Some lived, some died. In 2001, Wayne had 5 strong hives. He gave me a swarm from one of them that year. I placed that colony in a yard by itself and began to catch swarms, make splits, use swarm cells to start nucs, and use eggs and larva from that hive to bait trap outs. Of all the colonies I have started from that hive, and it has been many, none have ever been reported to have died from mites. None, as far as I know, have ever been treated. When I let someone have one, I asked to have them marked and traced, not treated, and report back if any ever died from mites. None have ever reported to me that they died from mites.

Wayne passed away Dec. 26th, 2008. Since that time, I have promoted these bees as "Wayne's bees". In 2010, Larry Tate, of Tate's Apiaries accepted a colony of Wayne's bees and began to graft from them. He is also going treatment free with them. So far, he is happy with their production, temperament, and longevity. He has not had any die from mites.

Larry Tate is now selling Wayne's bees queens.

Bakersdozen · « **Reply #8 on:** December 31, 2013, 07:46:30 am »

Quote from: Crofter on December 30, 2013, 07:33:30 pm

I can tell you that it is really cheap compared to other patent methods.

That's precisely why you won't see it marketed by a manufacturer. There's no money in it.

Crofter · « **Reply #9 on:** December 31, 2013, 09:53:26 am »

I think the inspectors are looking the other way though. Certainly it is known that it is being used and that it is accepted application in most of the rest of the world.
It is more a technicality in labelling process rather than a consideration that it is any hazard to consumers. I think there is a subtle difference between forbidden, and not approved.

Jen · « **Reply #10 on:** January 03, 2014, 12:18:47 pm »

Iddee, I like the idea of building a better bee. But how do you know is the bees have mites if you don't do some kind of testing, like a sticky board. I think.. I remember Glenn saying that he let a hive go with mites as a test to see how long the hive could go. He estimated 6,000 mites in this hive. His quote "They seem to be doing just fine"

But I just can't stand by and let mites drill holes in my bees anymore than I could let my kids walk around with leaches all over them.

iddee · « **Reply #11 on:** January 03, 2014, 02:25:06 pm »

The first swarm Wayne gave me died in it's tenth year. It did NOT die from mites, but from swarming and the new queen never made it. If it's still strong after 10 years of no treatments, why should you bother checking.

Besides, I have our state inspector check my hives annually for anything he/she might find. I get a mite count each year from them.

BoilerJim · « **Reply #12 on:** January 04, 2014, 11:56:50 am »

Crazy, I was also looking to purchase Oxalic Acid fogger. RJ Honey gave a demo while making candy boards back in October and I was sold on it. However, after listening to Michael Bush at the fall IBA conference I have now decided against it. I am not as intelligent in beekeeping as many of the long time B-keeps we have on here and many can probably refute Mr. Bush's wisdom on this topic but his philosophy is that if we treat the mite problem, we win the battle but we may loose the war. By treating - we and our bees get instant gratification but are we preventing the bees from developing the genetics to survive this problem as they have done themselves for thousands of years without our help?

PS: I AM NOT ANTI CHEMICAL or SAYING anything bad to those that use the fogger. Heck, I may loose patience and use it myself if I keep loosing all my stock each year. This is just something I have been thinking about. $:-\$

iddee · « **Reply #13 on:** January 04, 2014, 12:23:18 pm »

What works for one may not work for others. MB raises bees, so has no problem replacing deadouts. Therefore, for him, he is correct.

A newbee with 2 hives that he has 600 dollars invested in and it will cost him another 200 to replace them, it is not correct. He needs to treat, then requeen with resistant stock folks like MB have developed.

Crofter · « **Reply #14 on:** January 04, 2014, 12:48:11 pm »

There seems to be some suggestion that even very mite resistant bees (in their own locale) might not be so when moved to a different area that has a different strain of mite or where the mites are hosting a different background of virus contagion. The saying that "all beekeeping is local" seems very true from a lot of different aspects.
I took the path of being quite cautious about mites but even so one hive almost got over run before I twigged.

tecumseh · « **Reply #15 on:** January 04, 2014, 04:11:47 pm »

I have long suspected there is parallel between breeding for resistance for foul brood and the current attempts to breed resistant from varroa into the honeybee. in genetic/evolutionary speak this is a decision about whether you are willing to accept the APPROXIMATE or ULTIMATE solution to the situation < one does need to reconfirm in your mind that the ultimate ultimate solution in the natural world has often been extinction of a species.

if this analogy holds then anyone wanting to breed a better bee has to have a lot of patience and must be willing for a lot of bees to die in the process. testing and time become the tools of this endeavor. since most folks on this board simply do not have the number of hives to lose in this process then some intermediate strategy is likely a better choice. that is... once you have obtained some number of hives constantly test and then divide you hives into those that display resistance and those that do not. treat one and not the other. use one for honey/pollination or whatever and treat and use the other for selection for the next generation of bees.

I should add here that some of us are just very very lucky. I for one simply live close to some folks who began rearing resistant honeybees some years back and as luck would have it went to them when I began keeping bees this time around. really at the time I knew little of the varroa but do feel extremely fortunate to have obtained packages from them when I started up and to have continued to buy queens from them yearly... each year they do seem to get a bit hardier and in the process made a couple of very good friends along the way.

tecumseh · « **Reply #16 on:** January 04, 2014, 04:18:12 pm »

as Crofter has suggested above location can make huge differences in outcomes and micro ecological factors will effect a lot of species including the honeybee*. as far as I know there are several variation in the types of varroa mites but only one of these has been shown to be economically detrimental to the honeybee.

*these factors should not be minimized and at least I suspect from past outbreaks of pathogens that a lot of 'other factors' can and have killed honeybee now and in the distant past. I at least get the notion/suggestion/hint at the front side of any and all exposure to a new pathogen it ALWAYS gets the blame when an individual hive dies.

LazyBkpr · « **Reply #17 on:** January 04, 2014, 08:55:00 pm »

I have been working toward the distant goal of treatment free, have a couple of feral hives that I dont treat, and have ordered some VSH/cross queens.. but I think the slow process of selection will all be akin to weeing up a rope.. Simply ordering proven queens and installing them solves the struggle. I think this year will be dedicated to expanding, and next spring were going to be putting some new queens into the hives.
The thought of no more struggle with Varoa is particularly appealing.

Jen · « **Reply #18 on:** January 04, 2014, 10:42:29 pm »

Crofter- what do you mean by twigged?

And that's what happened to my one and only hive this last fall. I've had casualties these last three years and finally this year I got a strong healthy hive, two deeps high. I can't remember what clued me in, but I started asking how to treat for mites. Long story short, I chose formic acid sticky strips, and had a 2,000 mite kill. I was astonished. And as long as I have only two hives, i believe I will probably have to treat because I won't have any back up hives. My choices will be oxalic acid vaporizer twice a year as a rule.

Crofter · « **Reply #19 on:** January 05, 2014, 11:12:40 am »

Jay bird; "Crofter- what do you mean by twigged?" Alerted Like a deer from the snapping of a twig.

I had hives on screened bottoms and one of the 6 was lagging a bit from the start. Mite fall did not seem to be much higher than the others but It just was not building or drawing much wax. What I finally twigged to is that some brood was being hauled out. Empty cells amongst the capped brood was being relaid with fresh eggs. Real shotgun or spotted laying pattern. We checked some samples for nosema but that was inconclusive. I treated with Hopguard strips and got fairly high mite drop. After about a month of weekly treatments they started picking up and the laying pattern was solid. I had to feed but the colony wintered well and was up to measure with the others next spring.