Feed until they quit taking it

[LazyBkpr]

  OK Folks, STOP saying that!   Some of you may have bees that WILL stop taking it, Some dont!   I have both!
   Some of the older hives will stop taking syrup, but not all of them.  My external feeder goes from having six layer deep bees trying to get to the syrup on each others backs during the early spring, to ONE layer of bees that still takes 5 gallons of syrup in a day during the best part of the flow.
   IF.. I continue to feed, those hives/bees that continue to take the syrup would, and will backfill the brood nest until they either dwindled or absconded..
  Feeding with jars, and using three tiny holes in the jars helps this situation, because they cannot get enough of the syrup fast enough to backfill the cells..  PROVIDED there is no flow..
   IF there is an excellent flow, AND you are feeding, even with few holes in a jar type feeder, they will STILL backfill the brood nest...  This is one of the reasons you inspect the hives, to insure they have room to lay.

   If you have comb to draw, have a newly started hive, or are building up for spring, feeding is the thing to do. If you need them to put away stores for winter, feeding is the thing to do.  More than once, I have inspected a hive to find it "nearly" plugged out with syrup..   I shake out the frames that are supposed to be brood nest, and remove what ever the source of the syrup is.. Sticking that comb into the freezer and replacing it with a drawn comb is a viable option.. if it is natural flow, there is not much you can do, except attempt to shake out the combs so the bees will clean them, and with luck, allow the queen to lay in them...   Usually, a natural flow that good only lasts a short time before it trickles back to normal, so its just a matter of keeping an eye on how much they are storing..
   It only takes losing one hive because they backfilled themselves out of room before you too will start paying attention, and stop saying...

  Feed till they stop taking it!

   Just my experience, with greedy bees...

[brooksbeefarm]

I see alot of truth in what your saying Scott, over the years we (Beekeepers) have managed to make bees more friendly than they use to be and by constant feeding hives that over take we might be making welfare bees by doing so?? Jack

[tedh]

I'm gonna go out on a limb and weigh in on this one.  This isn't an opinion, just my experience.  Last year Josh and I each started a hive.  Packages on undrawn plasticel foundation.  The beginner books we had read ALL said feed, feed, feed.  So we did.  We had syrup on the hives until we put sugar cakes on and wrapped them up for winter.  Well, maybe we stopped the syrup a couple weeks before as the temps were dropping.  I know for a fact that we kept syrup on all summer.  Both our hives survived the winter.

This year we made up some nucs that we eventually moved into deep hive bodies.  Our past experience and the books we had read said feed, feed, feed so we did.  What we have now with these "new" hives is kind of a mess.  The girls have been socking away the syrup (and nectar) to the point that now they think they need to swarm.  No place for the queen to lay.  Talked with LazyBkpr and filled him in on what was happening.  I told him we were doing the same thing we did last year with horrible results.  His reply was that "last year was a terrible year for nectar".  I don't know.  This year looks pretty much like last year to me.  However, the girls seem to have a different view.  The original hives are packing the nectar in (no feeding).  I think my lesson, maybe, is to watch the bees and "listen" to what they are saying.  Since the books CAN be wrong, and I have no idea what a flow looks like just from observing plants,  my only recourse is to watch the girls and "listen".  So here's my opinion:  Feed, feed, feed as long as you check them once a week and if you see a problem with that, stop feeding and try to fix the problem.

When I first read Lazy's post I thought "UH OH!"  here we go.  This is going to get interesting.  Spent the last few hours mowing and thinking about it.  I believe he has brought up a very valid point.  Ted

[LazyBkpr]

I dont think they are "welfare" bees Jack, I just think they are taking advantage of a good thing.. if someone parked a buffet in your driveway and offered you all you wanted, would you go to the grocery store? Cook Supper? Err. I mean, Since your the KING of your castle order your wife to cook supper?     

[Les]

Being the newbie, I am a bit confused by these posts.  If you feed, feed, feed them don't your cells just get packed with syrup and not nectar?  Cells packed with syrup would be great if you needed your bees to have food to over winter but what if you want to have honey?  What happens to your honey if you extract and it is part syrup and part nectar?  Inquiring mind needs to know.

[iddee]

I've always said feed a new hive until they draw 2 deeps. Then learn the heft test. Lift the back of your hive an inch before each inspection. Then notice how much stores they have. Before long, you will know how much they have and if they need to be fed just by lifting the back of the hive an inch. Feed when light, not when heavy.

[tbonekel]

Good thread and I agree with Lazy on this issue. Here is my two cents. Unfortunately, I go back and forth on feeding. I think the whole purpose of feeding is to keep them from starving, period. I think sometimes, we feed for selfish reasons. We want them to build up very quickly and give us a honey crop as soon as possible. I will use a cutout I did yesterday as an example. These bees were in a water meter. When I opened it up, there were about 5 small, drawn combs and they were filling it with everything they needed. I saw pollen, larvae and uncapped honey. This was a swarm that was ready to build some comb and they did. The rest is up to the foragers and the queen. I cut out the comb and was able to use about half of it. At that point, I was putting a colony of honey bees in a box that had used most of their resources to get started in that water meter. I felt that it was up to me to give them some feed for them to replace what I had to destroy.

in general, swarms happen when there is a good flow on. If I catch a swarm and put it in a box, why would I want to feed them? We know they are stuffed with honey and they are busting, ready to build comb. Why not let them build on their time? If you don't feed though, there is a risk of them leaving, of course.

I also have bees that will use what I give them as long as I give it too them regardless of whether there is a flow on.

There is of course the fact that when starting a new hive late in the year, they have to be fed so they can build up and have enough for the winter, but I think that when starting a new hive that late, will give you more issues than just feed.

This all comes from a guy who is still trying to find himself in the world of beekeeping and still has many questions, so don't plan on using anything I typed as anything more than my opinion. Sorry for the rambling.

[Riverrat]

I agree with Iddee I will feed a new hive until they are in 2 deeps drawn out and some weight to them.  At that point they are on there own unless they get light through the year. 

[LazyBkpr]

I think the whole purpose of feeding is to keep them from starving, period.

   So you dont think feeding a package is a good thing when you install it? Or feeding to build up early in the spring? Or feeding to draw comb?  I am not criticizing at all.. I know a fellow who "teaches" putting out things like Deer guts so the bees can get protein, seriously....   so dont stop rambling.
   Some of the best Ideas I have had were someone elses ideas! All the rest I still like listening to!   

[Lburou]

I agree with most of what has been said, and don't think of an instance where I might feed a mature hive. 

Our Club membership asks something about feeding at every meeting.  We usually respond about feeding package bees, an expanding NUC, a swarm, or a split, with a caveat about always watching for the back-filling in the broodnest.  Two years ago, several in the Club had swarms because of blind feeding without monitoring the broodnest. 

I will, however, feed when I want to stimulate a queen to lay... And, to encourage a virgin queen to her mating flights (in a nectar dearth, virgin queens will wait and wait to mate, a bit of sugar water gets them on the wing).  Feeding to stimulate a queen to lay and a virgin to make a mating flight is not my idea, its in the literature (its in the small print).  ;-)

Great idea for a thread Lazy!  Do it again next year... ;-)

[tbonekel]

So you dont think feeding a package is a good thing when you install it?

Actually, I think feeding a package is necessary because those bees were not prepared for their separation from the mother hive. Again this is still me being pretty new, but as I understand it, a package is a queen in a box with some dumped bees. They do need to be fed.

Or feeding to build up early in the spring?

This is where I don't have enough years under my belt to give a good, experienced opinion, but I have heard too many times about feeding to get a queen to start laying, only to have the brood frozen by a late cold spell. If they have honey, let her start laying when she starts.

Or feeding to draw comb?

If it's a package, yes. If it's a swarm, no (that's the hardest, because I have a swarm right now that has food). If it's a cut-out, maybe.

The hardest thing to do is practice what I preach, though. In my gut, I feel that's what I should do, but there are many people who have been doing this longer than me that I respect and try to follow (you are one of them) and some do things differently. But that's okay. I'm still learning and pretty hard headed.

[LazyBkpr]

   Well said.    Whatever the situation, like Iddee said, if they are getting lighter instead of heavier I will put syrup on them.  I am 100% all for letting the bees get their own supplies.. but "I" am the one who has 20 hives stacked side by side here, or tenish hives in each outyard.. a situation that the bees would not have set up on their own given a choice. In order to make sure they thrive, I feed when they need it.

   The Swarm....
   A swarm will stock up on nectar/honey before they leave, so they are producing wax when hived. From that moment, the ability to build will decline, until adequate stores are found, and begin arriving to fill the new combs..   I still like to give them a quart or two of syrup slowly.. three or four holes in the lid..  In my opinion...  this helps them keep right on building...
   All of this is my opinion btw...   None of it may be right in your situation and I have no argument if anyone wishes to operate differently.
   I like to feed to get them started, keep them going, to keep them from starving, to medicate, and to insure they have reserves for winter..   ALL of which are done as necessary, and often happen as that "gut" feeling tells me the flow has stopped or is dying...   IE, no rain for three weeks and its 98 degrees...
   As Iddee said, grabbing the back of the hive and lifting tells me how heavy it is, a peek tells me how many bees there are, and from that you can decide to feed or not..

   Feeding for winter in August I will often put out my open feeders, and the bees will suck down 5 gallons of syrup in a day easily..
   Looking in hives, it becomes apparent that some hives do not take as much as others.
   There is always that one, or two, that will back fill EVERYTHING if you keep open feeding.. So once the hives that are taking it the fastest begin to reach winter weight, I stop open feeding and feed through jars on top to bring the rest of the hives to weight.
   My point in all of this, is just to pay attention to the bees when or IF you DO feed, because feeding until they quit taking it does not apply to all bees.
   Scott
 

[Colobee]

All good points on feeding.
 
The one concern I have is feeding during a flow & then extracting it. I understand KFC now has a "honey sauce" which is more sugar water & honey (?). That is what you'd get if feeding into a supered hive during a flow - adulterated honey. If you're adding any of the feed supplements, you're risking tainting the entire honey crop. Some raise legitimate concerns that sugar syrup may ultimately end up in honey supers anyway, and justify NOT feeding for that one reason. There is little current research on just how often fed sugar syrup ends up in storage supers. We just have no reliable way of knowing.

I agree somewhat ( it's a possibility) & have never fed  supered hives during a flow. Packages, nucs,  swarms and weak colonies needing a boost don't fall into the same category. The prospect of strong hives robbing out weaker "fed hives", and storing away the robbed syrup as nectar raises an interesting point of contention.

[LazyBkpr]

   Agreed, and usually, if your feeding to get comb drawn, get a package etc, started, or are feeding for spring build up or fall storage, there will be no supers on. the statement about feeding until they stop taking it is usually geared toward a hive that is just started, building, or re growing after a long winter, be it a nuc or full size hive.
 

[Lburou]

We have focused mainly on feeding sugarwater so far.  When does everyone feed pollen or pollen substitute?

Protein will stimulate the queen to lay.  Some beekeepers feed it early in the season (here in Texas, that means anytime after Christmas).  Early in the season the sub can be fed without a small hive beetle (SHB) problem, but later in summer, the SHB larva will feast on the sub if the bees can't police the edges of the food.  So, I'm very measured in the amount of sub the bees get during summer and fall -usually about one fourth of a patty or an ice cream scoop full.  Pollen is usually  plentiful in summer and fall here.

I will add a bit of pollen sub when I put grafts in the hive to get well nurtured queen cells.  I'll also put sub in a small colony anytime I want to see the queen laying more.

FWIW, I used to be in the camp that did not feed, ever.  After seeing the difference enlightened and judicious feeding can make, I have opened my mind to the benefits of feeding.   

[tbonekel]

One interesting thing I have noticed is how my hives seem to collect different amounts of pollen. Two hives right next to each other that are about the same size;  one is packing in the pollen, the other not so much. How bees handle sugar water may be similar. All the more reason how important it is to have at least two hives and not just one as a hobby beekeeper.

to answer your question. So far, I have not fed any pollen sub to any of the hives. Really, only because we have a pretty good supply of dandelions pretty much from the beginning of February and I have seen them bringing in pollen very early in the season. Now, whether it's enough, i don't know, but so far they have seemed to do all right. Up north, I think it's a different story.

[riverbee]

 topic~
 Feed until they quit taking it

"OK Folks, STOP saying that! "

feeding is a management issue for all of us under all sorts of variables and circumstances and we all need to learn and recognize when to feed, and when not to feed and pay attention to this.

basically for me........
*feed until all frames are drawn. deep foundation, or super foundation. don't depend on nectar flows to get this done, as soon as these are drawn, pull the feed, indication of a nectar flow and lots of young bees is white wax, and white wax on the tops of the frames and on the underneath side of the inner cover.
*feed a nuc, divide, to get them jump started if need be. also, a smaller swarm.  these bees don't have enough foragers to bring in what is needed for all.
*feed when in a dearth and no honey frames are available, otherwise they WILL starve.

*i do not feed during a flow, except to nucs or divides or swarms that may need it.
  i have fed bees in early spring with a flow on and two supers of foundation on........gets the job done quicker, pulled the feed as soon as the frames 
  were drawn during the flow so as no syrup was stored in my supers.

when do they need it?...........look at your frames. read your frames. what's in them?  is there nectar, is there pollen? how much? 

pollen subs,
i feed pollen subs if i think there is no pollen coming in or there is not enough visible pollen stored in the hive.
we all must understand that healthy bees require both nectar and pollen throughout the season and especially going into winter months and coming into spring months. 
read the frames. do you have pollen stores?
for the most part, my experience is the bees readily take pollen subs as they need it. if natural pollen is coming in, the bees will ignore the pollen sub.

i have to add a comment about the no feeding thing.  some beeks think, (whether young or old in beekeeping), that the bees can take care of themselves. don't fool yourselves into thinking this, otherwise you might find yourselves with weak hives and starving bees.
learn when to feed, when not to feed, pay attention to your situation, your variables, read your frames........ but don't deprive them.

 

[LazyBkpr]

Pollen sub...   
   I use Ultra Bee, and offer it too them dry in an external feeder in spring when they are beginning to fly regularly. No natural pollen is available, and my offerings, I HOPE are limiting the sawdust, grain dust and even road dust the bees will bring back as a substitute.  It allows them to start brooding up early so I can make early splits and or queens..   I start early in the home yard, and it is a calculated risk.. if we suddenly get a freeze for two weeks they are likely to die trying to care for the brood...  in the outyards I will also feed in an external feeder, but I will wait two to three weeks longer before starting..  The purpose there is not to build up for splits and queens, but is to build up strong hives for production.

[Colobee]

I, too, was in the "never feed" camp for decades.
 
 Lately I've been trying to re-grow the apiary, and feed  nucs & packages both pollen sub & syrup in the spring/summer. I still hesitate to feed large overwintered colonies. I don't want them to overbuild before winter is almost certainly done (usually sometime in May).

[tedh]

Hi Everyone,
This is an excellent topic and very appropriate for the circumstances Josh and I find ourselves in.  Feeding packages, nucs/splits etc. is, I believe, good advice.  Except for at least one situation which is becoming more and more obvious to me.  Please realize this is just an observation from a novice so take it with a "grain of salt".  We have two hives and two nucs that are in the process of requeeing themselves.  It appears that with no new brood to care for the girls are just hoarding nectar/syrup and are in the process of plugging up what should be the brood chamber.  We removed the feeders from these colonies.  I wouldn't go so far as to say don't feed hives that are requeening but I would say it might be best to use caution when doing so and by all means pay attention to what's happening within the brood chamber.  Come to think of it, paying attention to what's happening in the brood chamber is probably good advice under any situation.  Ted