Author Topic: Stagnating Nucs... (Read 10032 times)

LazyBkpr · « **on:** July 02, 2015, 09:33:40 pm »

I have been paying attention to Zweefer and the nuc I gave him.. he said it does not seem to be growing, lots of brood but none of it capped... even after waiting a few weeks longer....
Ted called me today, to tell me the nucs he took dont seem to be growing...
So i called the other folks i gave or sold nucs to, and all seem to be doing well, all in hives and growing...

The purpose of the post is to perhaps help me/Zweef/Ted understand what is going on, why they are not growing?
I have about 15 nucs started, and a few already being maintained.. i have not as yet noticed anything untoward...

Ideas?

tbonekel · « **Reply #1 on:** July 02, 2015, 09:39:13 pm »

Very strange indeed! I have two hives, nuc size that are also not wanting to really grow. I feed them and they don't draw comb. I don't know where they are putting it. What small area the queen has to lay in is a really nice pattern.

apisbees · « **Reply #2 on:** July 02, 2015, 10:54:01 pm »

Severe drought will stop the bees from drawing comb. The lack of a nectar flow will cause the bees to poorly feed the larva and the bees will cut back the rations to the queen which will slow her egg laying. the bees will also cannibalize the brood and feed on it so the living bees in the hive can survive.
Place mutable food sources in/for the hive; In hive frame feeder, Hive top feeder, Feed jars or pails, fill on different days and make sure that they never all run out of syrup at the same time. Use a thin syrup that will stimulate the hive like a nectar flow, no thicker than 1 to 1. If there are no other hives or bees in the area (I can't believe that I am going to suggest this But,) you could open feed to create some competition between the nucs for bringing nectar (syrup) back to the hive.
Bees can be starving for pollen as well as nectar so watch for both. but with no comb being built I would think it is more a nectar shortage.
In the month of August we can have hive that will cleans the brood from the hive if the plants are in what I call drought survival mode. We go in to the brood chamber and there is little brood left in the hive and you know that the queen was laying lots of eggs a couple of weeks before.

Riverrat · « **Reply #3 on:** July 02, 2015, 11:50:17 pm »

Im feeding 3 swarm hives I picked up in early june. They are slow to build also. Never in 10 years have I had them this slow

Zweefer · « **Reply #4 on:** July 03, 2015, 12:01:31 am »

Ive tried pollen patties and feed. the queen is laying, but no brood appears to be getting capped... I see larva in different stages, plenty of eggs, just no capped brood?!?!?

Jen · « **Reply #5 on:** July 03, 2015, 12:09:41 am »

Apis, this is a great refresher course for me here in Calif, I have 3 hives and not one of them has one super of honey filled yet, just plugging along. I've been feeding every day one pint of 1-1 syrup to 3 hives and two nucs. They are gone by the end of the evening. I remember this happening last year when my hives back filled with sugar syrup including plenty of red hummingbird food.

There has been concern for pollinators literally running out of bloom food this year too early, due to a very early and long spring.

Jen · « **Reply #6 on:** July 03, 2015, 12:13:07 am »

Zweef - I'm not getting very many eggs and small larvae. And one of my frames looked to me like the capped brood was drying up.

LazyBkpr · « **Reply #7 on:** July 03, 2015, 08:45:45 am »

Were not in a drought at all... too much rain here to be honest... I put out a few frames with honey in them to be cleaned out and the bees have not touched them, so I have to assume there is a good flow.
I am going to go through the home hives on Monday to see what I can find here. I might have to drive up to Ted's to have a look next week as well.

apisbees · « **Reply #8 on:** July 03, 2015, 09:59:46 am »

you are right Lazy to many rainy days will effect the bees nectar foraging and the end results are the same. The hives lose the stimulation to keep building up.

Jen · « **Reply #9 on:** July 03, 2015, 11:04:35 am »

Apis, should I continue feeding everyday throughout the summer? we are having somewhat of a steady flow now, about 2-3 weeks, but it's not amounting to much.

apisbees · « **Reply #10 on:** July 03, 2015, 12:10:43 pm »

I don't like feeding And let them fend for themselves from spring to late summer and will only feed if their survival is at state. Starting Sept I will determine their winter needs and start to feed for winter stores. but I am also in the position that I am not drawing a lot of foundation. depending of the amount of brood in early Sept. if if looks like brood production was scaled back in July ans August by the bees I will also feed 1/2 to 1 pollen patties to stimulate some fall brood production to bolster the winter bee population.

Off the subject but something to consider.
It takes 100 lb of honey for the bees to feed the larva being raised in a colony for a month. In the first half of July, Kill the queen and let the hive replace her. It will give the colony a 30 day break in brood it will allow 75 lbs of the 100 lbs to be stored. These bees will not be missed in honey production as eggs laid first week in July emerge 1st last week of August and wont start to forage until the last week of August. The new queen should be back in the hive mated and laying the first week in Aug, with the first of her new brood emerging starting the first week in September. because of being queenless the bees will support her in a massive egg laying campaign to provide you with an abundance of young bees to go into winter with. The 30 day brood break also gives the hive a natural mite control for the bees going into winter.

For more information on this strategy read and watch Mel Disselkoen video on OTS queen rearing.

here is a link to an other thread on OTS that was started here.
http://www.worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/index.php/topic,539.msg6241.html#msg6241

tedh · « **Reply #11 on:** July 03, 2015, 05:25:19 pm »

Hi Everyone,

First of all I want everyone to be aware that Lazy and I worked out a trade for the nucs. I GOT THE BETTER DEAL! Lazy is a GOOD GUY, a HECK OF A BEEKEEPER, and IN NO WAY IS THIS HIS PROBLEM, nor do I feel bad about our trade! I'd do it again tomorrow if I wanted more hives. From our perspective this is just one more, of the MANY things, Josh and I are trying to work through this season. Going from 2 to 10+ hives has been an eye opener for us, fun, but an eye opener! Sorry for all the caps, I used them only for emphasis. I keep coming back to this paragraph. I can't stress this enough so I'm going to beat this horse one more time. This IN NO WAY is or should be a reflection on Lazy.

It sounds to me like there are different symptoms between Zweefer's nuc and ours. Our nucs (from Lazy): The queen is laying but, it's quite spotty. There will be some eggs here, a few there, a few more over there, along with a little brood in differant stages of development, including capped brood on the same frame. Then there's a few empty frames with some stores. Then a frame with spotty brood, and so it goes throughout the original frames (10) that came with each nuc. My first thought is that the queens, Josh and I each got a 10 frame nuc from Lazy, are pooping out but, the bees seem to have no interest in superseding her. They seem to be going about business as usual as if everything is going well. I also notice that the bees don't seem to interested in drawing wax. Since we each had 10 frames of drawn wax we thought it best to add another brood box when we first brought them home. Just so you know: The hives currently consist of a bottom board, a medium brood box, a deep brood box, reversible inner cover, an empty box housing a feeder, and a tele cover. Neither hive has worked, to our knowledge, on pulling wax in the top brood box. I have added frames of stores and brood to the top brood box to coax the bees to do, something. I can't recall if Josh did the same thing. His nuc is behaving exactly like the one here at my house. I have the option of "offing" the queens and requeening. I don't really like that option, as sentimental as it is, these are Lazy's queens, and I'd kind of like to keep them for that reason. My concern is that if they don't start building up soon, they may not make it through the winter. So, wait or requeen. That's where we are right now. Ted

iddee · « **Reply #12 on:** July 03, 2015, 07:48:21 pm »

""lots of brood but none of it capped... even after waiting a few weeks longer....""

If no capped brood after 10 days of spotting eggs, I would guess they are either covered in mites, or the queen mated with several of her brothers and the bees are removing the larva.

Ted's sentimentality is going to lose him a couple hives. New queen is in order.

apisbees · « **Reply #13 on:** July 04, 2015, 01:42:05 am »

Tedh, Zweefer, Lazy and all other out there beekeeping. Things happen that no one has any control over. Weather, which drones managed to tap the queen or how many she mated with. Where the hives are kept as most on this forum have and want their in their back yard. A yard in a location that last year was a great spot and produced a bountiful crop, may not be nearly as good the following years.
We use to see this in taking hives into fireweed. In the 1970's when the fireweed was in the freshly cut valley bottoms, it would yield a crop 7 years out of 10. In the 1980's when the trees had grown and provided too much shade and the fireweed was too sparse in the valleys so the hives had to be moved to cut blocks up the mountain sides, the abundant yield years dropped to 5 out of 10 years. It is frustrating when bees and hives don't react in the way we think they should or have in the past but Lazy's first post was for ideas on what could be causing the issues that are affecting a few nucs. Because it seems to be only a few nucs in certain areas I would tend to think it is an environmental issue. Unless other hives or nucs in the yard are not effected in the same way. But even a hive because of a different hive population demographic will react differently than a nuc.
Iddee's post referring to the possibility of diploid workers/ drones can be checked by placing a frame that is drawn and ready for the queen to lay in the middle of the brood chamber. The queen will lay it full of eggs fairly quickly. On the 4th day pull the frame and look in the cells and see how the queen is in her egg laying ability. If almost every cell has an egg in it the queen is doing a fine job of laying. Replace the frame and 3 days later (on day 7 ) pull the frame and see if the larva in the cells match the laying pattern of what the eggs were. If the queen missed 5% of the cells when laying and checked in 4 days and at 7 days 15% to 25% of the cells do not have larva's in them it is a good indication that the bees may be clearing out diploid workers/ drones. Some of the cells may have eggs because of the queen coming back around to relay the empty cells. So what you need to look for is the different in percentage of cells laid with eggs and small fresh hatched larva on day 4 to cells that on day 7 have larva in them. as all the eggs that were present on day 4 will be hatched, and any eggs will be newly laid.

Lburou · « **Reply #14 on:** July 04, 2015, 09:50:35 am »

A lot of good advice and a lot to think about as you retrace your steps to establish a new hive.

Feeding carbs and protein will cover that issue. Requeening will cover that issue. Do you have too much room inside the hive for the population of bees? Do your bees have a brood disease (I doubt it), or a source of insecticide or fungicide that affects the brood ? Post some pictures of the brood pattern and a closeup of the larva if you can -looking for symptoms of EFB, EFB kills larva before they are capped. Take a bit of powdered sugar and perform a mite count.

My own tendency is to give a NUC sized bunch of bees too much room. Crowded bees do better than those with too much room -watch them grow and provide space when they need it, not before. My NUCs respond well with the use of dummy boards (hollow boxes that hang like frames that are two or three frames wide) in the hive to reduce the space they must heat and cool as they patrol for SHB and Wax Moths.

Added: A picture of larva infected with EFB...

Zweefer · « **Reply #15 on:** July 04, 2015, 10:44:11 am »

All other colonies are going gangbusters right now. I did check for EFB - not it. As for too much space, they were full when I received the nuc.
At this point, I think Iddee may have the correct answer.

I would also like to reiterate what Ted said... I do not feel that this reflects on Lazy in any way shape of form. He has been nothing short of exceptional throughout this whole thing!

tedh · « **Reply #16 on:** July 04, 2015, 11:55:27 am »

Hi Everyone,
Iddee, thanks for the nudge. I thought we should requeen but needed to hear it from someone else before we took that step. This morning Josh and I pulled two queens from nucs and caged them (made me think of you Iddee!) and pulled Lazy's queens from the troubled hives, caging them . We will requeen the troubled hives this evening and hang onto Lazy's queens until we know the new queens are accepted. We just haven't decided what to do with Lazy's queens after that. Probably off them, as much as we 'd rather not. We'll let the queenless nucs requeen themselves. Thanks, Ted

Jen · « **Reply #17 on:** July 04, 2015, 12:15:26 pm »

Apis- "The queen will lay it full of eggs fairly quickly. On the 4th day pull the frame and look in the cells and see how the queen is in her egg laying ability. If almost every cell has an egg in it the queen is doing a fine job of laying. Replace the frame and 3 days later (on day 7 ) pull the frame and see if the larva in the cells match the laying pattern of what the eggs were. If the queen missed 5% of the cells when laying and checked in 4 days and at 7 days 15% to 25% of the cells do not have larva's in them it is a good indication that the bees may be clearing out diploid workers/ drones. Some of the cells may have eggs because of the queen coming back around to relay the empty cells. So what you need to look for is the different in percentage of cells laid with eggs and small fresh hatched larva on day 4 to cells that on day 7 have larva in them. as all the eggs that were present on day 4 will be hatched, and any eggs will be newly laid.

Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaat?

Apis... I have learned soo much from you, but sometimes you genius brain boggles

LazyBkpr · « **Reply #18 on:** July 05, 2015, 09:04:25 am »

I have not yet replied,because I did not feel it was a queen issue. I would not have allowed those nucs out unless I knew the queen was going to town already with lots of good brood in a good pattern etc...
I went through all of my hives/nucs here yesterday.. the ones in my home yard.. went through them with a fine tooth comb...
I cannot say how this issue relates to what I found here, but I am going to toss it out there...
Two of the twenty I have in this yard seemed to have issues similar to those mentioned, so I looked through them closer.. Hives that are at least a couple months old, but do not seem to be growing..
Spotty brood, empty cells that are refilled with eggs... I looked deeper, and found larvae that was dead and brown.. some of it tiny, some of it a little older, none of it even close to be ready to be capped. I remember seeing this before, and thinking it was chilled brood because we had a few COLD nights early in the summer.. now I am not so sure, but I do not know what to make of it...
Both of these hives had these patches of dead brood.. I have seen AFB and checked or it.. I know the smell... this si not it... I have seen EFB and the rotten ammonia smell is something that sticks in my memory and is one of those things you cant UN remember... I have never seen sac brood, but this does not seem to match... It LOOKS like chilled brood.. dried up royal jelly and dead larvae... the bees remove it, and the queen re lays in those cells.... Less than 10% of the cells have been capped.. I opened some of those cells and found live viable larvae/pupae in them... SO, still looking for ideas, with the added information...
Scott

apisbees · « **Reply #19 on:** July 05, 2015, 10:12:16 am »

I have one hive that is having issues Mainly what appears to be sac brood. It is not AFB, EFB, as both these virus cause the brood to break down and die at a specific stage in the development. In the first of the year when it was cold I thought it could be chilled brood. but it has persisted and at this time of year with how warm it has been here it is definitely not chilled brood.
Only one out of 5 hives at that location has it. In my hive think it is a combination of sac brood I see some signs of the deformed wing virus on a few bees and dug some capped brood out of cells that were effected but no mites were in the cells with these bees.
Sac brood goes away when the weather warms and the nectar flows and with fresh pollen, but not in this hive. Only speaking for what I am seeing in my hive, I think it comes down to a queen genetics issue. With most queens and in most hives the bees clean out dead or dieing larva In this hive there is an adequate population to keep the hive clean, but the bees are not doing a very good job of it. Cleansing behavior is a genetic trait I think passed from the queen.
I placed the queen in a clean super no brood no honey and no pollen in the location of the original hive. I want see if is a spreading re-infestation issue that the bees are spreading due to contaminates being spread from infected larva. The frames with brood are stacked and I will let all the brood emerge and see if the bees will clean the cells. I will let them draw queen cells but will replace her with a queen from a nuc when the frames are clean and before she starts Laying.