Author Topic: In First Use of Landmark Law, Minnesota Confirms Neonics Harm Bees  (Read 4736 times)

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Offline Zweefer

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Offline LazyBkpr

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Re: In First Use of Landmark Law, Minnesota Confirms Neonics Harm Bees
« Reply #1 on: March 23, 2016, 06:08:21 pm »
Interesting read, and it will be interesting to find out what the "proof" was. I have not seen significant drift when the fields nearby were planted, but I dont know all the variables involved. The soil here is "usually" damp enough that there is little to no dust plume when planting. When the combines roll, thats a different story. You can usually stand looking across the horizon and count how many combines are in the field at any given time from the plume of dust.
   I have stated it before, that the farmers WILL use something as an insecticide, unless we want a lot of other countries to go without our corn and beans.. and that will mean the govt will lose money...   I dont see that happening, what I fear is that whatever replaces neonics will be worse, until it can be Proven to be worse, and then it will be replaced again, and again, and again........
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Offline apisbees

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Re: In First Use of Landmark Law, Minnesota Confirms Neonics Harm Bees
« Reply #2 on: March 23, 2016, 06:38:46 pm »
This is the same problem that the beekeepers faced in Ontario a couple of years back. Due to the damage it caused wiping out the entire bees colony and the time of year and the fact that it was a drifting of the pesticide it was fairly easy to test for and prove what the cause was. Proving Neo's are causing a problem when it is being brought into the hive in nectar, or water (from contaminated water sources or moisture picked up from treated plants) will be harder to prove.
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Offline Ray

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Re: In First Use of Landmark Law, Minnesota Confirms Neonics Harm Bees
« Reply #3 on: March 23, 2016, 08:03:10 pm »
The State of Minnesota paid the damages and probably didn't put up much of a fight.
The neonics are better than the organophosphates they replaced, but they aren't good enough.
IMO the Insecticide Industry will do NOTHING unless forced to.

Offline Zweefer

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Re: In First Use of Landmark Law, Minnesota Confirms Neonics Harm Bees
« Reply #4 on: March 23, 2016, 08:57:49 pm »
I agree with you Lazy... I believe they are a heck of a lot better then what was used.  I have been in many a "discussion" with other keeps in my area on this very topic. 
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Offline tecumseh

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Re: In First Use of Landmark Law, Minnesota Confirms Neonics Harm Bees
« Reply #5 on: March 24, 2016, 06:43:25 am »
a Lazybkpr snip...
I have stated it before, that the farmers WILL use something as an insecticide, unless we want a lot of other countries to go without our corn and beans.. and that will mean the govt will lose money...   I dont see that happening, what I fear is that whatever replaces neonics will be worse, until it can be Proven to be worse, and then it will be replaced again, and again, and again........

my comments...
have you noticed how in recent time the conversation always seems to turn to 'what is good for ME' and NEVER 'what is good for US'?  Although I don't really think 'the govt' will lose that much no matter what happens I do suspect it is fairly natural when some pest starts to destroy some crop that pays the bill that folks will use whatever is available to limit this problem.  and yes history tells me that prior product may be much worse.  as far as I know neonics as a seed coating is not classified as a pesticide (I think I got that idea from some comment Randy Oliver made???)  as such these 'seed coating' don't go under the same test by the EPA and this also means this court decision will also be overturned on appeal.  I would not count my chickens or spend the settlement money until all legal remedies were completed.

Offline apisbees

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Re: In First Use of Landmark Law, Minnesota Confirms Neonics Harm Bees
« Reply #6 on: March 24, 2016, 07:46:44 am »
http://independentagnetwork.blogspot.ca/2016/03/minnesota-department-of-agriculture.html

It relay is not a win. It was the Minnesota department of agriculture ( tax payers) that paid for the compensation. And it was done under a state law that only applies to 1/50 of the USA.
The ruling and judgment is not binding on the EPA or any of the other major players.
I am glad that the beekeepers got compensated for the loss of the hives, But this is a case of the State doing the right thing, Not any of the parties producing or giving them approval for use being held accountable
Honey Judge, Beekeeping Display Coordinator, Armstrong Fair and Rodeo.

Offline LazyBkpr

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Re: In First Use of Landmark Law, Minnesota Confirms Neonics Harm Bees
« Reply #7 on: April 15, 2016, 09:32:09 pm »
I did not realize that the coating was not considered a pesticide?  What exactly is it classified as?
   I am all for something better, completely and without reservation I DO want something better...    As stated, I like the neonics because they are "not as bad as what we had" but will never say that there is no room for improvement.
   I think the Neonics and treatments used on crops fall into a similar category as treatments for Varroa...   If, in the beginning, NO ONE had used any treatments, by now we would all have restocked with the bees that did survive. if NOW, all beekeepers would ONLY purchase resistant stock, rather than generic packages, we would be on the road to not having to treat...  But there is money involved....
     Rather than spraying for everything under the sun, we could have instead produced resistant crops..   For instance, Monsantos Round up resistant corn and beans. Is it not just as possible to develop crops that are resistant to the pests as it is to develop them for resistance to round up?  It is only my opinion, but my belief has always been that when "money" is involved, common sense goes out the window. What is good for "us" doesnt matter, as Tech said, it then becomes what is good for "me", or in this case whoever the beneficiaries of the profits will be.
   
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Offline Chip Euliss

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Re: In First Use of Landmark Law, Minnesota Confirms Neonics Harm Bees
« Reply #8 on: April 16, 2016, 01:17:54 am »
The folks who make them call them systemic insecticides--a rose by any other name is.......  Whether it is better than what we've used in the past is tough to assess since so much change has occurred in habitat conditions for bees and all the complex interactions, especially in the top honey producing states such as North Dakota.  The region has seen sweeping change in the past decade that range from the loss of large acreage of conservation lands (e.g., Conservation Reserve Programs [CRP]) to an even greater reduction in the diversity of crops that are grown here.  The regional climate cycles between periods of severe drought to periods of severe deluge; climate cycles, although seemingly bad, are the primary reason the soils are rich because there has been little leaching of soil nutrients.  The interaction of climate and rich mineral soils is the main reason the region is so productive of crops, wildlife, and honeybees.  Over the past couple of decades, climate has been generally favorable to crops and bees (still in mostly a wet phase of the cycle) but there have been sweeping changes in crop diversity and habitat availability for bees due to higher crop returns that encouraged conversion of conservation lands to agricultural production, even on less productive soils.  When I first came to North Dakota about 25 years ago, crops were fairly diverse, CRP and other conservation lands were far more abundant, and there was less competition for flowers because there were fewer bees and more favorable and abundant habitat.  Today, we mostly grow corn and soybeans (these crops were pretty much absent here 25 years ago, especially corn), we've lost most of the CRP acreage, and our bees have far more competition for flowers because our hive numbers have about doubled.  As a consequence, there are fewer flowers available and the reduced diversity in crops has resulted in fewer blooming periods for pollinators.  Historically, the mixture of conservation lands (pastoral too) and crops once provided fairly long periods when flowers were available to provide nectar and pollen.  Today, with fewer crops, we have more dearths when little to no nectar and pollen available but we also have periods of extremely high nectar flow when weather conditions complement a particular crop or other important plants to bees--sort of a rabbit-gas-type trajectory.  As tough as this is on beekeepers and honeybees, native bees are even more vulnerable when land use change results in periods of dearth when little or no suitable flowers are available because many don't store food like honeybees.  Consequently, we feed more (syrup and pollen sub) than in the past to get our bees strong enough to make a profitable return in honey during periods of high flow (we generally do the same thing for pollination).  Our landscape used to provide for the needs of honeybees without any help from beekeepers; a clear sign that today's landscape doesn't provide a sustainable habitat for bees--that's pretty scary.  As a result, our bees will and do forage on plants that offer poor or no nutrition because that's what they have available and today's agricultural crops are not just less diverse and they form a proportionately larger area of habitat for our bees than in past decades.  This does lots of things but I think a couple are profound:  1) Bee diets are less diverse (research shows that bees consume pollen from a greater variety of plants, they are healthier (e.g., improved immune systems) [pollen is their source of protein and different plant species have different amino acid composition in the protein so consuming pollen from more plant species increases the chance that they will get the diet they require) and 2) the proportionate exposure to crops is higher than in the past and the way the systemic insecticides work is much different than insecticides used in the past.  From my understanding, the dose an insect pest gets from a plant grown from treated seeds is a very low dose and we don't understand all the mechanisms of how that low dose may effect bees.  Maybe it's nothing to worry about, maybe it builds up in the hive (chronic exposure) that has a negative influence on the hive over time, or maybe influences (or not) the bees in ways we don't yet understand.  No doubt that they kill insects; that's what they were designed to do and they work well.  Maybe, even though some of the earlier insecticides, as bad as they are, weren't as hard on bees in the long haul because they were more acute, killed the bees outright so not as much insecticide got in the hive--I don't know.  I do know there are lots of unanswered questions that need to be answered before we can make informed decisions to keep pollinators healthy and functioning for healthy crops and ecosystems.  This is long-winded but I think we all need to think about the larger picture and how all the pieces fit together. The link I provided the other day talked to the situation in Europe and how the 3 systemic insecticides they banned resulted in healthier bee populations.  There have been a number of peer-reviewed papers published that support the reasoning of the recovery in the link; I don't doubt the findings but I do suspect other factors were also important--it's a very complex world out there!  I believe this is the point we need to keep in mind for context as we consider the reports such as the one in this thread.  All the insults our bees receive today (pesticides from the agricultural, and other industries), chemicals and other pesticides we use in the hives, habitat loss and floral diversity, and many more) act in synergy to influence the health of our bees; I believe this is the reason it is so hard to document cause-and-effect with neonics and why it divides our views so much on causes and solutions.
Chip

Offline Perry

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Re: In First Use of Landmark Law, Minnesota Confirms Neonics Harm Bees
« Reply #9 on: April 16, 2016, 06:16:52 am »
 "I believe this is the reason it is so hard to document cause-and-effect with neonics and why it divides our views so much on causes and solutions."
 
:yes: :yes: :yes:

Divide and conquer, it has worked for ages and will continue to do so. Unless we as beekeepers can learn to actually agree on something, don't expect any quarter to be given by anyone, anywhere. We are often our own worst enemies.
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Offline LazyBkpr

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Re: In First Use of Landmark Law, Minnesota Confirms Neonics Harm Bees
« Reply #10 on: April 16, 2016, 09:18:21 pm »
Unless we as beekeepers can learn to actually agree on something, don't expect any quarter to be given by anyone, anywhere.


      :o   Wait!!!  I think... I agreed with Jack, on something....  some time ago......
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