Author Topic: Do The Bees Need An Egg To Make A New Queen? (Read 5921 times)

Jen · « **on:** April 29, 2016, 11:35:51 pm »

I moved a frame of eggs/brood to one of my hives that is queenless. Almost all of the frames of eggs I had to choose from were eggs that were already laying down and the royal jelly being applied to them. Will the bees use tiny larvae to make a queen?

Chip Euliss · « **Reply #1 on:** April 30, 2016, 12:43:05 am »

Yep, the bees will raise a new queen from very young larvae as you describe. I prefer to add queens but Ive "restarted" hives just as you describe in outyards that I couldn't get back to quickly or if I was out of queens or nucs to give them.

Jen · « **Reply #2 on:** April 30, 2016, 12:52:40 am »

Thanks Chip

Last year i tried to stay within my own resources and had pretty good luck. My hives are more like pets, so I'm not in a hurry to purchase queens, but would if it meant my whole apiary may perish.

Chip Euliss · « **Reply #3 on:** April 30, 2016, 01:14:25 am »

I hear you and understand. My goal is to have a diversity of queens lines in the apiary so I have a diversity of drones available for breeding for normal re-queening via supersedure or emergency cells. Most of my yards overlap the flight range of my adjacent yards and I tend to understock yards to avoid excessive competition. I went to a bee meeting at Penn State 4-5 years ago and a friend of mine gave the results of a study he and his colleagues conducted and the number of hives that superseded after being re-queened was amazingly high--much higher than I would have guessed so it made me feel even better about my management stye. I have queens early in the season and nucs later in the season; both are good insurance policies to speed up the process because when I detect a problem, time is usually of the essence to get them back online as soon as possible. One of the downsides to having too many hives--just can't track them closely like a hobbyist or side-liner. That's why, on not-so-busy days, I just like to open a hive or two to enjoy watching bees being bees. For that reason, I plan to have bees till the bitter end, just fewer than now.

LazyBkpr · « **Reply #4 on:** April 30, 2016, 04:41:25 pm »

one to three day old larvae is what they will make the queen from, with the better queens being the one day old larvae as I am told repeatedly.. I have given them eggs to see what they would do, and they started cells, but I am presuming they were actually larvae before the cell was drawn out.

pistolpete · « **Reply #5 on:** April 30, 2016, 10:55:19 pm »

It helps to notch some cells using the OTS method. That way you get the queen cells drawn parallel to the comb, rather than sticking out like emergency cells.

Jen · « **Reply #6 on:** April 30, 2016, 11:12:06 pm »

Scott, that is my knowledge as well, that a 1-2 day old egg is primo. I have a queenless hive, swarmed 2 times that I know of. I also have a booming hive, so I got into booming hive and I'll be gall darned if virtually every frame was capped and had all larvae from teeeeny little larvae to large larvae. Took me over 40 minutes to finally find a small patch of eggs the size of a golf ball. I sure hope it works.

Pete, I haven't graduate to the notching thing yet. Maybe I'll try that next year. I'm busy this year learning about nucs

Perry · « **Reply #7 on:** May 01, 2016, 06:46:15 am »

My eyes being what they are, I couldn't really tell you the difference between eggs and a one or two day old larvae. If I see eggs that's all I really worry about when transferring a frame.

Jen · « **Reply #8 on:** May 01, 2016, 03:16:20 pm »

Perry, me too when it comes to eggs. But I'm still wondering if the bees will make a queen out of tiny larvae that is laying down, curled up, and already having royal jelly applied to it.

iddee · « **Reply #9 on:** May 01, 2016, 03:58:39 pm »

Jen, tiny larva is the ONLY thing they will make a queen from. We say eggs so the bees will have time to choose several if they need to wait a bit. Using only larva, chosen with the human eye, may be too old. An egg hatching tomorrow will be perfect.......tomorrow.

Ray4852 · « **Reply #10 on:** May 01, 2016, 04:41:11 pm »

I'm reading a book know, Breeding Super Bees by Steve Taber. He picks eggs to make his queens. How do you know when an egg is hatching.

pistolpete · « **Reply #11 on:** May 01, 2016, 08:24:56 pm »

Yes, like Iddee said: a 2 day old larva is where the money is, not a 2 day old egg. I pick a place on the frame where eggs are transitioning into freshly hatched larvae and notch about 5 cells in one swipe, that way they have a range to choose from.

Chip Euliss · « **Reply #12 on:** May 01, 2016, 10:05:57 pm »

I need my reading glasses but if you're having trouble telling the difference between an egg and a fresh hatchling, try a magnifying glass. I know several folks who are really good at grafting cells, including a friend who sells about 60,000 cells each spring, that just use reading glasses and they're awfully good at it. They also make larger magnifying glasses but probably not worth the trouble unless you make a lot of cells.

iddee · « **Reply #13 on:** May 01, 2016, 10:10:29 pm »

If you can see an egg, you can tell the difference. An egg is standing on end in a dry cell. As it hatches, the bees add royal jelly. All new larva will have RJ in the cell.

Jen · « **Reply #14 on:** May 01, 2016, 10:41:59 pm »

As Iddee said. While I was searching for a frame with eggs, I noticed lots of different stages of larvae. The sun was just right and the teeny larvae was in dark wax cell, so it stood out. My glasses have bifocals so I was able to see a tiny curled larvae, smaller than a half a grain of white rice with just a little royal jelly with it. It was very cool!

Anyway, my learning up to today is that....

1 day old egg will stand straight up
2 day old egg will lean just a bit
3 day old egg will lean almost to the floor of the cell
4 day old egg will lay down on the floor of the cell

I'm thinking that day 5 it hatches and curls into larvae, and the bees start layering on the royal jelly.

pistolpete · « **Reply #15 on:** May 01, 2016, 11:57:15 pm »

You're off by a day. 3 days as an egg, 5 days as a larva, the rest as a Pupa, The egg hatches on day 4.

Jen · « **Reply #16 on:** May 02, 2016, 01:23:57 am »

Okay Pete, that works for me ~

4 day old egg lays down on the floor of the cell and hatches into larvae, at that point is when the bees will decide if it's the perfect size/age larvae to make a queen?

iddee · « **Reply #17 on:** May 02, 2016, 04:29:14 am »

You are both off a day. Remember 3-6-12.
3 days as egg, 6 days as larva, 12 days as pupa.
Jen, as the egg curls down on day 3 the bees add royal jelly. At that point it develops a mouth and begins eating.

Jen · « **Reply #18 on:** May 02, 2016, 12:55:33 pm »

Oh That Is So Funny! I had a gut feeling when I made my last post that I was gonna hear from Iddee...

Thanks Iddee for not yelling at me

I had forgotten about the 3 6 12. Now I just have to keep it in my head

capt44 · « **Reply #19 on:** May 10, 2016, 11:46:27 pm »

Rule of thumb I use when putting a frame of brood and eggs in a queenless hive is.
Buy the time the bees decide to start making a new queen the larva can be too old.
Make sure the foundation has eggs.
Eggs hatch on day 3 1/2 to 4.
There will be no royal jelly in a cell unless the egg has hatched.
If you see the bottom of the cell wet there will be a very small larva there.
They are almost transluscent in color.
I use jewelers magnification goggles with a light to graft the young larva.
That young just hatched larva is what they need at that time.