Bees building comb on lid

[omnimirage]

One of my hives are doing this and I don't know why. They have space on the frames, everything is properly placed, and I'm using a hive mat. I took some photos.

https://imgur.com/a/HxCpU

Why might they be doing this?

[Perry]

Any time that there is more space available than bee space (3/8") they will fill the void. The more space the more comb you can expect.

[Bakersdozen]

omni, I am not familiar with a hive mat.  That's new to me.
I see a lot of spaces or gaps between those 9 frames.  10 frames should be in those 10 frame brood boxes.  8 frames in an 8 frame brood box.  You want to push those all together towards the middle of the brood box and have space on the outsides.  It might be too late to do that now.  The combs looks really built out.  I would say it's time to put a second brood box on.  If you aren't feeding, it looks like there is sufficient nectar flow for comb building.
Those combs will make it difficult to get into the hive and do an inspection. 

[Mikey N.C.]

Does that top cover fit around box or stacks on top like a box ? I can't figure out how there would be that much space if cover fits properly

[LazyBkpr]

what was said above, too much space, as long as there is a flow or feeding they will build comb in that much space..   I have 3/8 rims on my reversible inner covers and about a third of my hives still tries to build comb there instead of the empty frames I give them.. going to have to shave a few of them an eighth or so..
    So... either figure out how they are getting past the matt, or reduce the space.. from the top of the frame to the top of the lid at or JUST under 3/8"

[Jen]

Omni, not to fret, I did the very same thing and got the very same results.. unknowingly. What Bakersdozen said. Put another super on and push all frames tightly together towards the center. And, when you get into the bottom brood box for an inspection, be very slow at pulling the frames out and up from the box. Give plenty of time for the queen to move out of the way of the excess comb moving upward, or it could injure or kill her. It's called 'rolling the queen'. Don't be afraid to do an inspection tho, just go very slow.   

[Jen]

Curious what a Hive Mat is? and what it's purpose is for?

[Perry]

I believe some folks use mats instead of the traditional inner cover.

[Jen]

Hmmm, I think I see. So the mat is to fill the space between the top of the frames and lid..

[apisbees]

Put a super on??? they are in their fall going into winter.
Mats sre used instead of inner covers. some use plastic some tyvec others carpet. It allows for easier removal of the cover with out disturbing the bees as much.

[Jen]

Awe now Apis, ya made me look, omni is in Australia. I'm glad I look at where Omni lives cause I was gonna have to have an argument with you there 

[apisbees]

Yes Offering timely advice is a little more challenging when their seasons are 6 months out of cynic
Omni have you been feeding that hives? If not you may have pulled your honey supers a little soon. If you have weak hives in a yard that are getting robed out will show up in the strong colonies doing the robbing out.

[riverbee]

my guess is the bees ran out of space this late in your season, and went to underside of the outer cover...........not familiar with hive mats, but i do know bees will build comb anywhere there is space to do so (as others have mentioned)............

[omnimirage]

Thanks for the great feedback

Any time that there is more space available than bee space (3/8") they will fill the void. The more space the more comb you can expect.

That's good to know! It's weird because I use this same setup on my other hives, but I don't see them building on top of the other hives. I'm going to see if there's a way I can measure what I have, will be interesting to see what space gap is actually there.

omni, I am not familiar with a hive mat.  That's new to me.
I see a lot of spaces or gaps between those 9 frames.  10 frames should be in those 10 frame brood boxes.  8 frames in an 8 frame brood box.  You want to push those all together towards the middle of the brood box and have space on the outsides.  It might be too late to do that now.  The combs looks really built out.  I would say it's time to put a second brood box on.  If you aren't feeding, it looks like there is sufficient nectar flow for comb building.
Those combs will make it difficult to get into the hive and do an inspection. 

I was taught to use nine frames, over ten. Something about more space lets them put more honey on each frame and makes conditions less crowded and more optimal for the bees. I'm not actually sure how many frames are in this hive. Does it look like there's not enough? This super was something I built myself, and I think I might have built them a fraction too large, making 10 frames fit in more snug. (also got a batch of thicker frames, having non-standard equipment is a pain working with).

Does that top cover fit around box or stacks on top like a box ? I can't figure out how there would be that much space if cover fits properly

If by top cover you mean the lid for the hive, then it sits on top, like a box would.

what was said above, too much space, as long as there is a flow or feeding they will build comb in that much space..   I have 3/8 rims on my reversible inner covers and about a third of my hives still tries to build comb there instead of the empty frames I give them.. going to have to shave a few of them an eighth or so..
    So... either figure out how they are getting past the matt, or reduce the space.. from the top of the frame to the top of the lid at or JUST under 3/8"

Shaving seems like something I'll have to do. Any tips on how I'd do that to the lid whilst keeping it flat? I wouldn't want it to be a bit uneven, which then leaves it not as sealed against the weather/insects as it could be.

I've found when I haven't used a hivemat, they built on the lid of my nucleus hives. I just figured that the hivemat was needed for them as a barrier so they wouldn't extend and build on the roof. I was surprised when I saw this comb on the roof, because I thought the hivemat would stop such.

Omni, not to fret, I did the very same thing and got the very same results.. unknowingly. What Bakersdozen said. Put another super on and push all frames tightly together towards the center. And, when you get into the bottom brood box for an inspection, be very slow at pulling the frames out and up from the box. Give plenty of time for the queen to move out of the way of the excess comb moving upward, or it could injure or kill her. It's called 'rolling the queen'. Don't be afraid to do an inspection tho, just go very slow.   

Curious what a Hive Mat is? and what it's purpose is for?

Good tip about crushing the queen! I've been concerned about that a few times, honestly didn't think to do it super slow to give her time to get out of the way.

Yes Offering timely advice is a little more challenging when their seasons are 6 months out of cynic
Omni have you been feeding that hives? If not you may have pulled your honey supers a little soon. If you have weak hives in a yard that are getting robed out will show up in the strong colonies doing the robbing out.

This beehive was stationed at my residence in the suburbs. It was in a nucleus, I captured it the spring before, about nine months ago. They finally outgrew their nuc-hive, so I moved them into a deep super, and moved them to my country apiary site. They were there for about a month or two when I took that photo, when I noticed that they were building on the lid, instead of the frames in there. I hadn't gotten around to coating my plastic foundation frames with beeswax, so perhaps such is too undesired to them. They are a little weak, taking awhile to grow to significant strength, but I'm not concerned as I was told it takes about a year.

Can bees from other hives fly to another active hive, and steal their honey? At this apiary site, I have two weak hives like this, one moderate strength one, and one strong hive.

[apisbees]

This beehive was stationed at my residence in the suburbs. It was in a nucleus, I captured it the spring before, about nine months ago. They finally outgrew their nuc-hive, so I moved them into a deep super, and moved them to my country apiary site. They were there for about a month or two when I took that photo, when I noticed that they were building on the lid, instead of the frames in there. I hadn't gotten around to coating my plastic foundation frames with beeswax, so perhaps such is too undesired to them. They are a little weak, taking awhile to grow to significant strength, but I'm not concerned as I was told it takes about a year.

Can bees from other hives fly to another active hive, and steal their honey? At this apiary site, I have two weak hives like this, one moderate strength one, and one strong hive.

Thanks Omni, this has provided a lot more information. Yes some bees and at certain times of the year bees will refuse to work plastic foundation.especially if they are unwaxed or the wax was striped off by the bees. In this case they decided to build their own comb above the mat
I would expect faster buildup than what you are seeing A colony with a prolific queen can go from 10,000 bees in the beginning of April to over 50,000 by the beginning of July. If you haven't been providing adequate space in a timely manner They may have been swarming out the excess population.
Robbing is a risk any time their is a dearth. Once it gets started it can be hard to get under control. especially in out yards where hives are not checked as regularly.

[omnimirage]

Thank you for providing such valuable information!

Certain times of the year they won't use it? Do they not use it during certain seasons?

I believe I have been timely enough. I've been monitoring them, and moving them out when they appear to need to be "upgraded" to a deep super. I even have hives that were caught during the same time (more or less), and haven't even moved out of the nucs yet. One in particular never seems to have much bees, even though everything inside the hive looks quite healthy. Should I be concerned? If things don't improve by next Spring, I might look to replace the queen. They all are just feral swarms that I capture.

I'm not familiar with dearths, haven't seen or heard anything about them. Seems to be enough food around for them, though do note that the bees haven't been doing too well out in the country apiary site. I asked the man working at the beekeeping supply yard if it was viable to have bees at my country place, he said that there wasn't good things blossoming except during one season. I haven't gotten to the point where I can read the local plants to tell if it's suitable for setting up hives. Can I visually tell if there's a dearth going on, and the bees are raiding other hives? I like to watch the bees fly about, and I never sense invading bees or any tension among them. Once I did see a bee fight another bee, which was most bizarre, but none of the other bees seemed concerned or paid any attention to it.

[apisbees]

what part of Australia are you in? the country is quite large with quite a change in the climate depending on the area.

[efmesch]

Omni says: "I was taught to use nine frames, over ten. Something about more space lets them put more honey on each frame and makes conditions less crowded and more optimal for the bees."

Ef agrees BUT adds: ONLY IF you're working with already built frames and IF honey is coming in.  Then you can space them out evenly so that you'll have nine where there would normally be ten and they will draw out the cells to be deeper.  It's a great method to save work when extracting---it's easier to uncap deeper frames and you have fewer frames to extract, while still storing the same amount of honey.  But if you do the same spacing-out with unbuilt or partially built frames, you'll always (or almost always) find the bees building between the frames and making one big mess out of your hive.

[Lburou]

Omni, one would expect the next question in your mind to be:  "What do I do with these combs now?"

In early mid summer, I'd scrape that comb out and let the bees rob it and give them another super, then save the remaining wax.  Since it is Fall there, I'd think about removing that mat and placing the top (or whatever you call it) back on, and let them have direct access during the winter.  Add another super in spring.  HTH   

[riverbee]

omni~

1. what apis said about using uncoated plastic foundation when hiving a nuc to a deep. (why they were building on the underneath side of the lid). coat the foundation.  also, feed them syrup to get the bees to draw foundation, or give them a 'boost' even if there is a flow on. early spring is best for bees to draw foundation, especially numerous frames. if there is a dearth on or limited nectar sources, you will be hard pressed to have them draw comb and/or later in the season.

2. i use 9 frames in a deep brood box and 8 frames in a medium super for honey..........however as ef mentioned, if these frames are all foundation, adjust, meaning if you are using 9 frames of foundation, you need to place 10 frames in.  once the bees start drawing frames, drawn frames can be moved out.