Author Topic: TYPES OF TREATMENT? (Read 32807 times)

Jen · « **Reply #60 on:** January 15, 2014, 08:08:30 pm »

Glock ""I say do alcohol wash's spring/ mid summer /and fall / and go from there just keep a eye on your mite loads that's your job as the keeper.""

The way my class taught to do alcohol washes, or an ether roll, is to use approx 1 cup of bees in a jar, cover them with rubbing alchohol and shake them for about 5 minutes.

If that is done three times a summer, approx 1000 bees have died from that hive. That is a substantial amount of warmth that is taken away from the colony for the winter.

I just can't kill my bees for a mite count.

Many keeps do the sugar shake tho. Buuut, again I don't want to shake the sh.. out of my bees either.

I have a sbb and keep a sticky board under it all year long. In the winter I check it about twice a month. In the summer I check it once a week, clean it reapply the cooking shortening (Crisco) and put it back.

If when I pull it back out, I can count 10 mites, I multiply that by 10. That is how many are still in the hive. How many of those are pregnant females? I'm not taking the chance. It's time to fry mites!

GLOCK · « **Reply #61 on:** January 15, 2014, 08:40:30 pm »

That's great if that work for you but remember 1000 killed for testing is not nothing for strong hive .
And when you see mites on a sticky board there dead mites and as they grow so does the healthy mites in and on the comb just mite bombs waiting to happen .
I all so in my production hive pull the queens when there 3 deeps with brood and ad a honey deep {I use all deeps} and some bees die then to plus you should see the birds they eat well I have the biggest bird feeder around. Just saying a healthy hive can handle losing quite a few bees .
I mean this in the most nicest why

Jen · « **Reply #62 on:** January 15, 2014, 09:08:18 pm »

Glock! What a nice guy you are!

I am a mother, a maker and preserver of life. My vision is to keep bees alive, every single one of them. Yes, I have killed my share of bees, but I really try not to.

If you could see me and my sticky board, I would be hovered over it with a bright light AND a magnifying glass! You would be amazed at how many wiggly legs and moving antennae I find on my sticky board.

It's taken me three years to get to this fourth season without casualties. This forum has helped me beyond measure. I will always appreciate your input.

LazyBkpr · « **Reply #63 on:** January 15, 2014, 10:57:56 pm »

ok.. didnt want to get into the middle of that and walk away missing anything important....

Going to look into this a little more. I have seen a couple links for vaporizers, but they are pretty distant and prices are not in US dollars. Is there any place to order a GOOD one here in the US?
What about the OA for the treatment? Local Pharmacy? Apparently this stuff is used to... make Meth? Not sure, just wondered how to get it without going to jail... again...

Jen · « **Reply #64 on:** January 16, 2014, 12:23:26 am »

Lazy- Reeeelax..... Ohmmmmmmmm

I'm checkin on some prices for ya, hang loose for a bit... or tomorrow if you need your zzzzzzz's

I got mine thru ebay. But I would like to give you some price options.

Jen · « **Reply #65 on:** January 16, 2014, 12:57:06 am »

Lazy- pm'd you with vaporizer prices from ebay. You can get oxalic acid most anywhere just gotta make sure it's in the purest form. I got mine thru Amazon. 1 lb bag will last you a looooong time. Affordable.

LazyBkpr · « **Reply #66 on:** January 16, 2014, 09:37:05 am »

Excellent links, tyvm Jen..
Purest form.. it comes in different forms?
Hrm.. I see liquid and powder.. the video I watched shows powder...
In reading, and watching vids etc.. I have come to the conclusion that this stuff may well be the cats meow for mite treatment..
So let me make a scenario here...
IF.. I have hives I don't want to treat.. I watch those hives closely.. WHEN, it looks like a particular hive is about to crash, I can use the OAV on it and pretty much instantly wipe out the mite population.. wait two weeks, and use it again to bring the population down a bit more when a lot of the brood has hatched, THEN, drop Hopgard into the hive to finish them off... Re Queen that particular hive with a better queen and return to watching to see if the mites rebound or if the bees begin to deal with them.

I understand that the mites have already done some damage at that point, my effort would be to keep the hive alive to re queen. Re queening the hive is cheaper and easier than installing a package or a swarm, and may allow me to FIND more resistant bees?
Sound Plausible? Problems with this scenario?

Crofter · « **Reply #67 on:** January 16, 2014, 10:22:06 am »

If you wait till too late in the season to see what if, your bees may not have time to raise their wintering population in a reasonably virus free environment. I think the term "is virus titer" takes some time to drop after the varroa have been cut down. If you wait too late in spring you have honey supers considerations to deal with. Different treatments also require a different time and temperature window.
Canada Agriculture has lowered their recommended threshold level to start Varroa treatment.

Jen · « **Reply #68 on:** January 16, 2014, 12:34:33 pm »

Lazy- ""Purest form.. it comes in different forms?
Hrm.. I see liquid and powder.. the video I watched shows powder...""

I got mine from Amazon, but you can find it in any hardware store. If you buy just oxalic acid it will be in pure form. oa also comes in wood bleach form which may not be the purest form. Just buy oxalic powder, 1 lb for now, it will last a looong time.

Your scenario is plausible. However, it's backwards as to what i was taught. But that doesn't mean your way is wrong way. Except for one issue:

Lazy- ''WHEN, it looks like a particular hive is about to crash"

Don't wait for your hive to get loaded with mites, too much damage has been done to the bees which makes them week and die too early. Knock the mites out now and then treat on a regualar basis twice a year.

This is what I was taught from my beek friend in Denmark. He said that oa is used liberally in europe, it's legal there.

Because I had a huge infestation, my friend was worried that I wouldn't get the oav in the mail soon enough. So he advised to do the formic acid quick strips first, which would give my hive a 98% mite kill.

Then, when my oa vaporizer arrived... I was to check my sticky board, if there were more than 2 mites on it. Fog with the oa vaporizer one time. That is the finish off.

My plan is this:

1. I used formic acid quick strips for first treatment which allowed a 98% mite kill. Got a 2,000 mite kill.

2. Then, from here on out I will fog some time in August, when there is no brood left in the hive. And then I'll fog again in early spring when there is no brood or very little brood. Just like clock work.

This method allows the cells to be clean for when the queen starts to lay again.

Jen · « **Reply #69 on:** January 16, 2014, 02:28:31 pm »

In conjunct with my last post ----

This is where a screen bottom board comes in. I think.. I remember you saying that you have a combination sbb and solid bottom board.

Even tho I have fogged twice... I still check my sticky board every week during the summer.

Randy Oliver, scientist, says that if there are 10 mites on board, multiply that by 100, that will be whats on your bees in the colony. In your colony is pregant mites. That's far to many for my taste.

Randy Oliver is my Hero!

http://scientificbeekeeping.com/oxalic-acid-questions-answers-and-more-questions-part-1-of-2-parts/

LazyBkpr · « **Reply #70 on:** January 16, 2014, 07:00:06 pm »

As I understand it from lots of reading, a hive may not show resistance to mites until it begins to become an emergency, at which time they may, or may not begin to do something about the problem.. "MY" problem has always BEEN to wait long enough to see if they will react, and yet still leave myself enough time to react if they do not. Enough time to drop the mite load, save the hive and produce a queen from one of my VSH Queens to try again.... Killing off the mites before the bees react to them doesnt help them, or me in my quest to find resistant traits.

Jen · « **Reply #71 on:** January 16, 2014, 07:22:01 pm »

Lazy """MY" problem has always BEEN to wait long enough to see if they will react, and yet still leave myself enough time to react if they do not. Enough time to drop the mite load, save the hive and produce a queen from one of my VSH Queens to try again.... Killing off the mites before the bees react to them doesnt help them, or me in my quest to find resistant traits.""

1. Mkay... How can you know how and when to react when you can't see the little begger's? There can be 10,000 mites in your hive that you had no idea that they are there!

2. I'm confused as to why you think you need to re-queen after a treatment? am I reading that right?

3. I'm just trying to be a good beekeeper for Today. Every day I find new info to help me make a better bee. Keep them clean. Keep them fed, Keep them warm. Keep them cool. Let them Keep to themselves. Check my sticky board!

4. One mite on a bee is the equivalent of a soccer ball size sucker on our bodies. Imagine having 5 sucking soccer balls on our bodies. I Can't handle that information. I will treat twice a year.

Crofter · « **Reply #72 on:** January 16, 2014, 08:33:06 pm »

I can see the apparent logic in wanting an observable measure of resistance to enable a selection process. That would be the reason to re queen hives that show apparently less mite coping ability. I see possible issues of other causes being responsible for their condition though.

A second question is the assumption that resistance comes from that queens genetics rather than the drones contribution. Due to the number of drones possibly involved it may make for a mathematically long shot ability to effectively make any difference beyond random. Are you isolated enough to conceivably flood the drone supply?

Some of the resistant properties are recessive so must be present in both male and female lineage to move toward the target. I have not read more than clips of Brother Adam's work at developing the Buckfast Bee but it was not a quick process. That hybrid bee requires someone maintain at least two distinct breeding lines to keep the properties dominant.

Looking at my own longevity genetic forecast tells me I am no Brother Adam so I will leave that project to you younger guys and gals. In the meantime I think I will likely take Jen's approach and hit them mites hard, and kick em while they are down, lol.

Jen · « **Reply #73 on:** January 16, 2014, 10:08:46 pm »

Atta Boy Crofter!! One by One we shall march arm in arm conquering those nasty scallywags! In my backyard they shall never dwell!

LazyBkpr · « **Reply #74 on:** January 17, 2014, 12:29:14 am »

You have actually hit the nail squarely on the head Crofter.
A hive that has no active resistance gets a new queen, in HOPES that she will produce bees that are more resistant. Some of the feral hives DO show resistance, and are actively uncapping and pulling Larvae, but they dont do nearly as nice a job as the VSH queens. Even among those there is a difference in resistance, and I have to assume, it is for the reason mentioned, the drones they mated with.
Struggling with a hive I KNOW will die if not treated isnt beneficial. Specifically in allowing their drones to fly freely about. I have two other beekeepers nearby. One is all about resistant queens/bees, the other is all about natural selection.. which isnt ALL bad because we have a lot of feral bees.. But thats where the problem starts. In order to build resistance, I need to make sure that I have the best resistance I can get. As I said, keeping bees that show no resistance isnt helping me, my neighbors, or the feral population.
I use natural comb, and let them make the drones they feel they need. The other two local beeks use large cell foundation, so their drone brood is limited. The feral bees will be the ones producing the most drones, and will cause me the most heartache in building resistance. As I see it, every year I add a few well bred resistant queens, and keep trying to watch my bees and the mite load. The fact that some of the feral hives show resistance, or hygienic behavior gives me some hope of making a difference in my lifetime.
I never expected it to be fast, or easy, but I do enjoy trying, IF, I can figure out when those mites cross that line in the sand.

Jen · « **Reply #75 on:** January 17, 2014, 01:13:33 am »

scrambled eggs in my head

Crofter · « **Reply #76 on:** January 17, 2014, 08:33:40 am »

I had an experience with one hive where the mites were taking over. The bees were uncapping and pulling brood and the queen was laying like a good one. Fresh eggs immediately all amongst the capped cells. Poster card picture of shotgun or spotty brood. The bees were doing what mite resistant bees were supposed to do but something in that one nuc out of the six we bought gave it a high mite load that pushed it over the tipping point of what the bees could cope with. I knocked the mites down for them and the brood pattern straightened around. I had to feed some but that hive wintered as well as the others and did very well this summer.

Without having close control to keep all conditions identical it is almost impossible to select for small genetic benefits. Signal to noise ratio! I had one hive last year that produced considerably more honey that its neighbors. It did so again this year. Superior genetics??? or just the fact that it was on the end of the row in the direction of their main nectar crops? Really hard to change just one variable at a time but unless you do.......

lazy shooter · « **Reply #77 on:** January 17, 2014, 11:43:27 am »

@ Crofter:

Man on man did you hit the nail on the head with, "it's so hard to change one variable at the time." Great point.

Jen · « **Reply #78 on:** January 17, 2014, 12:10:35 pm »

Good Stories Crofter- Being a newbee, and considering the casualties my hives have suffered... I Have Learned A Lot! However I'm not at the point (three years) to recognize situations such as the ones you just spoke of. The first scenario is one were LazyBpr wants to get to before he treats.

LazyBkpr · « **Reply #79 on:** January 17, 2014, 06:22:24 pm »

Crofter;
The bees were doing what mite resistant bees were supposed to do but something in that one nuc out of the six we bought gave it a high mite load that pushed it over the tipping point of what the bees could cope with.

Indeed, and thats where I have the most trouble deciding what to do. You think maybe a hive that was overrun absconded and joined these bees Croft? Or the mite bomb just exploded before they could control it?