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Author Topic: Strange behaviour = nucs  (Read 9349 times)

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Offline Perry

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Strange behaviour = nucs
« on: June 05, 2016, 06:10:26 am »
I have now had something strange occur with 3 of my nucs.
To begin with, out of 40 queens I've purchased, there was a 20% failure rate, which seems pretty much in line this year with what I am hearing from other keeps. It is frustrating to pay $40 for a queen only to see the bees release and reject her, but such is life in the bee world.
But in the last week I have now come across something that I have not seen before. The nucs where the queens were accepted were going along great, and are heading out the door over the last few days. On 3 separate occasions I have checked the nucs the day before they are to be picked up, and they are fine, lots of bees and more than enough brood. The next day I go to transfer them to either the customers equipment or a plastic/cardboard nuc box, and the first thing I notice is fewer bees when I lift the lids to do the transfer. Lots of brood, but definitely fewer bees and no queen. Nothing. No queen cells, lots of fresh eggs, but clearly fewer bees and no queen.
I have to then scramble to find another nuc to replace these and I will now have to either let them raise their own or wait for local queens to become available (still waiting).
What would cause a perfectly content nuc to suddenly decide to swarm (?) without even having a replacement on the go?
Congestion? Absconding behaviour of some kind, but then why would other bees remain? In 2 of the nucs there were enough
fewer bees that I removed a frame of brood (1 of 3) so that there were enough bees to cover what was left.
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Offline brooksbeefarm

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Re: Strange behaviour = nucs
« Reply #1 on: June 05, 2016, 09:02:40 am »
My guess is Mites. Jack
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Offline rwlaw

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Re: Strange behaviour = nucs
« Reply #2 on: June 05, 2016, 10:35:12 am »
That bites Perry, the fact that you've got a high failure rate and absconding issues to boot. I know you have some crummy weather up there, I wonder if that has anything to with it.
What makes things even worse is we're bee farmers, a person raising beef has tangible evidence. A hole in the fence, a blood test comes back positive. We're left with few clues and pockets not deep enough to get proper testing done, if there's anything left to test.
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Offline LazyBkpr

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Re: Strange behaviour = nucs
« Reply #3 on: June 05, 2016, 10:53:48 am »

   Indeed odd... I have found a couple with only a handfull of bees left, but the queen was still there, surrounded by her twenty to thirty loyal followers.....

   It does sound as if they decided to swarm, despite not having any queue to do so, and to leave behind brood and eggs like that also goes against the grain....
 
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Offline apisbees

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Re: Strange behaviour = nucs
« Reply #4 on: June 05, 2016, 11:05:04 am »
That sounds like a AHB defensive behavior. Disturb the hive and the bees abscond is a common AHB trait. Possibly that generic trait is in one of the queen lines used in the breeder queens.
Or as jack said maybe mite load, Or the bees genetic acceptability to what level of mite infestation they will allow before absconding.
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Offline Lburou

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Re: Strange behaviour = nucs
« Reply #5 on: June 05, 2016, 11:32:14 am »
Always something new with the bees.  Last week a friend watched as his recently installed queen left her perfectly good NUC with drawn comb & food, and flew away with all the bees. 

One instance of absconding would be within the bounds of normal, but three in just a few days?  Leaving brood and bees? Leaving stored food?  The only causes I can think of would be a skunk or some other critter harassing the NUCs or an occult disease (mites).

Apis mentions AHB.  One of the habits we see here is their usurpation swarms.  Very small swarms with a queen or queens alight and take over an established colony.  European bees have been known to do that as well.   But you had three in such a short time.   Mysterious as well as aggravating, I'm sure.  :)
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Offline riverbee

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Re: Strange behaviour = nucs
« Reply #6 on: June 06, 2016, 12:06:29 am »
perry, were all the frames capped brood in the nucs that took off?  (you mentioned fresh eggs)

meaning were the majority of the frames filled with capped brood?
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Offline Perry

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Re: Strange behaviour = nucs
« Reply #7 on: June 06, 2016, 07:03:05 am »
There was a lot of capped brood, yes. But for a queen and bees to leave (maybe a 1/3 of them) without any replacement on the way seems incredibly odd to me.
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Offline brooksbeefarm

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Re: Strange behaviour = nucs
« Reply #8 on: June 06, 2016, 10:15:46 am »
I got me a Voodoo doll too. :yes: Jack
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Offline Lburou

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Re: Strange behaviour = nucs
« Reply #9 on: June 06, 2016, 03:07:35 pm »
Quote from: brooksbeefarm on June 06, 2016, 10:15:46 am
I got me a Voodoo doll too. :yes: Jack
 
... :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
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Offline Lburou

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Re: Strange behaviour = nucs
« Reply #10 on: June 06, 2016, 03:09:21 pm »
Quote from: Perry on June 06, 2016, 07:03:05 am
There was a lot of capped brood, yes. But for a queen and bees to leave (maybe a 1/3 of them) without any replacement on the way seems incredibly odd to me.
Stabbing in the dark & looking for a common denominator here Perry, did the frames in those NUCs come from the same hive?
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Offline Perry

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Re: Strange behaviour = nucs
« Reply #11 on: June 06, 2016, 04:49:24 pm »
I'd have to go through my notes, but highly unlikely.
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Offline iddee

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Re: Strange behaviour = nucs
« Reply #12 on: June 06, 2016, 08:46:22 pm »
Your doll is too weak, Jack. I got Perry's straight from Marie Laveau.   :yes: :yes: :laugh:

http://voodooneworleans.com/
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Offline riverbee

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Re: Strange behaviour = nucs
« Reply #13 on: June 06, 2016, 10:35:31 pm »
"There was a lot of capped brood, yes. But for a queen and bees to leave (maybe a 1/3 of them) without any replacement on the way seems incredibly odd to me."

mark winston wrote about this (swarming behavior), and i think randy oliver did as well, will have to find and post.  with frames of capped brood, and no space for the queen to lay. did you have any empty drawn foundation in the nucs?
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Offline Chip Euliss

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Re: Strange behaviour = nucs
« Reply #14 on: June 06, 2016, 11:05:12 pm »
Good point River.  I've been thinking about Perry's issue all day and it is odd.  I've been making nucs from old queens and I had one swarm a few days ago and the donor hive was honey bound from me feeding syrup so there wasn't a space to lay.  i noticed because it was one of my best old VSH queens i was saving for my friend to sells cells.  If we knew all the answers, it wouldn't be fun would it?
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Offline riverbee

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Re: Strange behaviour = nucs
« Reply #15 on: June 07, 2016, 01:49:04 am »
i think so chip. was also thinking on this..........thanks for your thoughts and post........ i think there is something to be said about whether it's honey bound, brood bound or say with a frame of bare foundation, (bees ignore this, it's just empty space. the queen can't lay.)  swarming occurs when brood is primarily capped (among other things)?   one frame of brood roughly equals about 3 frames of bees? apis?  so the bees 'think' there is enough capped brood to swarm off (leaving behind the fully capped brood and some workers) without a queen cell/replacement. (reproduction of the nuc) and in perry's case........swarmed off with a new queen........... :D
hope i made sense?

chip wish we knew the answers, but as you said, no fun, keeps us keeping bees...... :D

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Offline Perry

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Re: Strange behaviour = nucs
« Reply #16 on: June 07, 2016, 06:22:22 am »
I think you both may be on to something. :)
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Offline apisbees

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Re: Strange behaviour = nucs
« Reply #17 on: June 07, 2016, 08:56:34 am »
Now you have a reason to sell week nucs. Your looking after the customers investment.
RB. "one frame of brood roughly equals about 3 frames of bees? apis?"
1 frame of brood roughly equals about 2 frames of bees
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Offline Bakersdozen

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Re: Strange behaviour = nucs
« Reply #18 on: June 07, 2016, 04:46:15 pm »
Quote from: riverbee on June 07, 2016, 01:49:04 am
i think there is something to be said about whether it's honey bound, brood bound or say with a frame of bare foundation, (bees ignore this, it's just empty space. the queen can't lay.)  swarming occurs when brood is primarily capped (among other things)?   one frame of brood roughly equals about 3 frames of bees? apis?  so the bees 'think' there is enough capped brood to swarm off (leaving behind the fully capped brood and some workers) without a queen cell/replacement. (reproduction of the nuc) and in perry's case........swarmed off with a new queen........... :D
hope i made sense?

I'm lost!  As I understand it, it's presumed the queen and workers swarmed because she was out of room to lay eggs in the nuc.  I can see the queen filling up available frames with brood quickly in a nuc.  I understand that.  I don't understand, yet, why they didn't leave a capped queen cell. 
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Offline tedh

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Re: Strange behaviour = nucs
« Reply #19 on: June 07, 2016, 06:44:02 pm »
I'm with you Bakers.
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