Author Topic: Warning! Dumb question coming! (Read 26423 times)

tbonekel · « **on:** January 18, 2014, 10:15:13 am »

Okay, I was reading a thread on OAV and started wondering about mite infestation, what happens to a hive that goes untreated? Do the hives migrate to other hives? It so, how, on the backs of robber bees? Do they crawl? What do beekeepers do with treatment free hives that have an infestation? I have never done a sugar shake or anything like that. I have done a pretty close up inspection of various bees as they move around the comb, but never see any mites on them.

Marbees · « **Reply #1 on:** January 18, 2014, 11:24:58 am »

Hives migrate to other hives? I believe you meant mites
Drones have unrestricted access to all hives, so they are likely to be carriers
Treatment free hives that survive must be of special genetics ( search for Wayne's bees) iddee is talking about.
They are called VSH, varroa sensitive hygiene, these bees groom each other, also they will clean cells with bee pupae infested with mites. It is a very desirable trait in bees, right after non aggressiveness.
It's hard to see mites on bees, but on brood it's very easy to spot them, just open some drone cells and you will be able to see them as black dots.

Jen · « **Reply #2 on:** January 18, 2014, 11:49:24 am »

tbone- First and Foremost, no such thing as a Dumb question. As a matter of fact your question is a very important question. I know the answer but would rather the experts explain it to you. They do such a good job!

Perry · « **Reply #3 on:** January 18, 2014, 02:16:40 pm »

Marbees has covered it pretty well. Drones are accepted in any hive and they will be carrying mites. Never rely on actually seeing mites on bees, they can be hiding under the abdominal plates on the bees.
A hive that goes untreated and cannot deal with the mite load will die. They may become so demoralized towards the end they simply abscond.

Jen · « **Reply #4 on:** January 18, 2014, 04:33:16 pm »

tbone- Last summer I sat right up against my hive most every day with my morning coffee and watched the bees come and go. I looked and searched for any visible sign of mites. I thought I was clear. Then. in late October an article caught my eye re: mites and gave several ways to check for them. I choose a sticky board because I'm not fond of the sugar shake, but many beeks use this method successfully. I made my sticky board out of a white realty sign and inserted it under my screen bottom board. Check it the next day, 50 mite drop. check it agian the day after, 80 mite drop. YIKES! I believe my hive was heading for the 'Mite Explosion'. Did a Formic Acid Quick Strips 7 day treatment. Checked the sticky board after 7 days. 2,000 mite drop.

I've been checking my sticky board about every 3 weeks over the winter, all was clear until about three weeks ago I saw about 50 mites. Did an oxalic treatment and check the board today. Ya, there is about 1,000 mites again. I will treat again within a week.

Slowmodem · « **Reply #5 on:** January 18, 2014, 04:34:17 pm »

Quote from: Marbees on January 18, 2014, 11:24:58 am

It's hard to see mites on bees, but on brood it's very easy to spot them, just open some drone cells and you will be able to see them as black dots.

You can see a mite in this picture easily:

Jen · « **Reply #6 on:** January 18, 2014, 04:56:06 pm »

And this is a pic of mites on my sticky board, this pic is about the size of a piece of printer paper. There is about 800 mites here, they are the size of the head of a straight pin. Click on the image

Barbarian · « **Reply #7 on:** January 19, 2014, 01:09:59 am »

If you are using solid floors and wish to see what a varroa looks like, you could try the Cooking Oil Test.

At the end of winter when you change or scrape your floor, keep the debris.
From the debris pick out the large bits (bees etc ) and discard.
Put the fine residue into an empty 1 lb jam jar ---- upto a third full ---- can be less.
Add cooking oil to the 3/4 level and stir with something like a kebab stick.
Add more oil until the jar is nearly full. Leave to stand for 30 mins or more.
Using a child's play paintbrush lift off any likely varroa from the surface and place on some paper kitchen towel.
Use a hand lens to look at your "varroa". Braula may also show up ..... visible legs.

Hope this may help.

tbonekel · « **Reply #8 on:** January 19, 2014, 08:03:00 am »

Quote from: Marbees on January 18, 2014, 11:24:58 am

Hives migrate to other hives? I believe you meant mites

Yes, thanks! So then the drones are what takes mites to other hives? Okay, so if an infestation is found, at what point does a mite count warrant treatment? 10 mites? 100 or 1000? I'm just trying to figure out what kind of trouble I would be in if I let it go and let the bees handle it.

Marbees · « **Reply #9 on:** January 19, 2014, 08:41:30 am »

Here is a link that will give you some answers

http://www.omafra.gov.on.ca/english/food/inspection/bees/varroa-sampling.htm

LazyBkpr · « **Reply #10 on:** January 19, 2014, 08:56:38 am »

When I check I usually use the either roll method. A cup of bees in a jar. Spray either in, close lid and roll the jar/ count the mites stuck to the glass.
Three or four mites means they are doing ok so far, if I I find eight to ten mites I will treat.
Watch for crawlers. If you see bees with damaged wings you know theres a mite problem that needs dealt with quickly.

The hive will begin to weaken. They will have several problems due to the heavy mite load, they will be SICK and unhappy bees, and the Bees may well migrate to another Hive to escape the problems. Taking those problems with them to the other hive. If its cold out, they will die or may try to leave the hive and die in the snow.

Some folks just let it go. If they die they weren't good enough bees/genetics. I have never done that, but have read that it often takes a lot of hives to make something like that work. The advantage would be a foolproof method of getting Hygienic behavior, the disadvantage would be a high expense, and a lot of work in replacing bees. I am of the opinion that allowing HUGE mite loads will send bees into other hives taking those mite loads with them. Possibly overwhelming the resistance of neighboring bees. (If they had any resistance)
Figuring out how you want to deal with them isn't fun, but its something we all have to do.

Zulu · « **Reply #11 on:** January 19, 2014, 09:56:09 am »

In addition to drones being carriers, the is always some drift between hives, ie bees that go into other hives

And as for Small Hive beetle! they can and do fly, so move on their own between hives.

Jen · « **Reply #12 on:** January 19, 2014, 03:07:05 pm »

Lazy- ""Watch for crawlers. If you see bees with damaged wings you know theres a mite problem that needs dealt with quickly. The hive will begin to weaken. They will have several problems due to the heavy mite load, they will be SICK and unhappy bees, and the Bees may well migrate to another Hive to escape the problems. Taking those problems with them to the other hive. If its cold out, they will die or may try to leave the hive and die in the snow.""

Good advice Lazy, forgot about the Deformed Wing Virus! You can see the deformed wings AND two mites on this bee. Sickening!

I did start seeing this last fall right before I treated with Formic Acid Quick Strips. My hive was in great danger.

Jen · « **Reply #13 on:** January 19, 2014, 03:10:27 pm »

Re: Lazy and 'reply #10'

Good advice!

tecumseh · « **Reply #14 on:** January 19, 2014, 06:51:50 pm »

a snip...
What do beekeepers do with treatment free hives that have an infestation? I have never done a sugar shake or anything like that.

tecumseh...
in the very distant past I played around with a couple of treatments. more in the current time frame I don't treat < at this time I am pretty much in the live and let die process of genetic selection. I am now at the juncture in time where I will in the future need to treat some and not others. At least going forward only some treatments are acceptable. having some reliable and repeatable method of testing for varroa will be essential and for me this is quite likely to be the sugar shake method.

tbonekel · « **Reply #15 on:** January 20, 2014, 10:47:57 am »

It would be interesting to know what studies, if any have been done on feral colonies. I have read that colonies in the wild make smaller comb and build-up an immunity to pests. All of my hives are from swarms. I know that doesn't really mean they are true wild colonies, but I guess that I am deciding to go the non-treatment route to see how they hold up. And, since they are from swarms, they are free, minus the cost of the wood for the hives, etc... A couple of years ago when I got into keeping bees, I had one hive from a nuc. It was a great experience, but shb had a field day with that hive and then I lost it in late winter. This time, out of all 5 hives, I have been able to count shb on one hand. That may not mean anything, but who knows.

All this to say that I will certainly not preach against treatment or non-treatment. To me, this forum is for learning from others about their experiences and learn all I can. In the short time, I've been a member, I've learned a lot! Thanks to everyone for their input!

minz · « **Reply #16 on:** January 20, 2014, 11:07:36 am »

How about a brood break? The mites expand in the cells of the bees, preferably in the drone cells. By removing the queen to a nuc with some frames, let the hive raise their own queen (or put a new one in there after waiting a while. There will be no new bees but also no new mites. You can also seek out the drone comb and pull them out since the mites prefer the drone comb. That is the idea behind the drone frames. Although I do these things (for splits and while I am in the hive) I am not in the treatment free arena.

Crofter · « **Reply #17 on:** January 20, 2014, 01:10:02 pm »

I imagine the kind of bee you find in a feral hive depends a lot on your geography. The breeding of a bee has a bearing on how often they are likely to swarm. I think swarming and leaving disease and pests behind might have something to do with the reputation for being more likely survivors. Just not sure that you can have guaranteed survivors if you put them in boxes and do everything in your power to curb their wandering ways.

I deliberately let the bees draw out and lay frames of drone brood which I culled and checked for mites. I did not find a one after checking many and then afterwards mostly checked random drone cells between frames. I had done an early spring round of Oxalic acid vapor on all hives and all of the hives but one were split.

Bad science, as I did too many things at once to ever attribute results. I am fortunate in having no hive beetle or wax moth and probably no feral or kept hives in my bees flying range.

LazyBkpr · « **Reply #18 on:** January 20, 2014, 01:46:52 pm »

Feral bees... They dont GET treated, so they either cope or die...
They overwinter in your location before they can cast a swarm the following year. They are used to local pollen and nectar sources, and they havent been pampered. But why are they surviving? Brood breaks during swarming? Or because they are resistant to mites?
I read a study in my relentless search for answers about a group that took feral bees that survived multiple years with no treatments, and put several colonies into standard hives, then left them alone.. two years later they were overwhelmed with mites and in the process of dying or absconding. Obviously I dont recall the details, but I recall wondering what the difference was? A box instead of a tree or metal tank?
The issue is pretty confusing to me.. A lot of people claim no treatment, and a lot of people claim that no treatment is NOT possible if you want bees to live. Yet I know {through the internet}, several people that claim their bees are doing just great with no treatments. NO TREATMENTS! Does that mean No culling drone comb or causing brood breaks? I would consider both a form of treatment.
Personally I like the feral bees I catch. they are sturdy rugged overwintering fools. Those I have DO seem more prone to keeping pests at bay. When my VSH Queens arrive I will begin watching to see just how similar their traits are to those feral bees. IF the vsh queens turn out to be pretty good, I am excited about crossing them at my Feral yard to see what results.

Crofter · « **Reply #19 on:** January 20, 2014, 02:10:30 pm »

Lazybkpr, it will be interesting to compare how the new queens do and to see if you can figure out how they do it!

How do the feral bees that survive differ from the ones that don't; did they just get lucky on location or inherit some windfall honey, did they requeen late in the previous season? It is just so exasperating that the essentials of survivability can not be identified. If the very special ingredients are very localized and non transferrable geographically maybe the special effects are within the local mite and its virus arsenal.