Author Topic: Spring Divides  (Read 28472 times)

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Offline Jen

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Re: Spring Divides
« Reply #20 on: January 31, 2014, 10:16:44 pm »
This leads me to believe that maybe I shouldn't split this year. Last fall during inspection, the brood box was full but not to capacity. And the top deep was full of honey but not to capacity. Didn't document these details.. Doh!

So maybe I should just not split this year and put honey supers on my double deep.... and also let the bees do more building in the double deep...

Does that make sense?
There Is Peace In The Queendom

Offline iddee

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Re: Spring Divides
« Reply #21 on: January 31, 2014, 10:30:10 pm »
Making a decision before time to split does not make sense. By then, you could have a beard covering the front of both hives or you could have 3 frames of bees.
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Offline LazyBkpr

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Re: Spring Divides
« Reply #22 on: January 31, 2014, 11:26:35 pm »
What Iddee Said..
 The production hives I have will get split into Nuc's.. (as long as they are good and strong!) old queens going into those nucs, new queens going into the hives.
   Taking only three frames of brood, one of pollen, one of honey should not set the production hive back by a great deal.. so long as the new queens are good queens.. and as I said, the hives are strong.  Best of all, these hives should still make honey, and I have artificially swarmed them, so the new queen is not "likely" to swarm as long as I make sure they have room to grow.
   The Nucs will get grown, hived, and hopefully build up well for the winter to make production hives next year.
   So many ways to do it...    This is one that has a good chance of getting you honey if we have a good spring/summer flow.
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Offline Jen

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Re: Spring Divides
« Reply #23 on: January 31, 2014, 11:42:57 pm »
Hey Lazy- I've been on forum most of the day. Information Overload! Gawd!


Re: How do I split from a deep to a medium

Iddee « Reply #10 on: Today at 10:54:46 PM »

If you look down at the top of two boxes, you have no idea if there is brood or honey. The adults need to be filling the between spaces fairly full before splitting.

If so, then you remove the frames and divide equally. If the adults are not covering nearly all empty space, the hive isn't strong enough to split by a new beek who doesn't want to chance losing both. After 10 years of beekeeping, and ready to lose half of them or more, then you may split one full deep into 5 hives. I just want you to be successful the first time.


I'm thinking that I may not need to split this year. On this thread Iddee gave some good advice on how to check in between the frames to determine if I have enough bees to split. I don't think I do. So I may just go for honey this year. Jury still out, but closer to a plan for this year
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Offline iddee

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Re: Spring Divides
« Reply #24 on: February 01, 2014, 07:59:10 am »
Jen, relax. You have 60 to 90 days before time to split. Your queen can lay over a hundred thousand eggs in that time period. You cannot decide whether you can safely make a split at this time.
“Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me... Anything can happen, child. Anything can be.”
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Offline LazyBkpr

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Re: Spring Divides
« Reply #25 on: February 01, 2014, 11:04:16 am »
hehe yep, what Iddee said again!!!
   When you go open the hives for the first time they will most certainly look too weak to split.  It will take the queen a bit to get the numbers cranked up.  Normally, its not a matter of being able to split during a particular year, its more a matter of waiting for the right TIME to do the split..   
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Offline Jen

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Re: Spring Divides
« Reply #26 on: February 01, 2014, 12:42:19 pm »
Siiiigh Okay! I guess... it's that my hive swarmed three times last year in about a 2 week period in late spring.

Trying to be ready to do the right thing at the right time
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Offline Crofter

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Re: Spring Divides
« Reply #27 on: February 01, 2014, 03:07:38 pm »
If it is an established double deep that overwintered I think to prevent certain swarming you will have to pull some brood from them. It does not have to be a 50/50 split. You can take off a very small split with the old queen and let the main hive raise a queen. I think Bush calls it a cutdown split. There are varying degrees of split, not total or nothing.
What happened last year sounds like a swarm with several after swarms.
Frank

Offline iddee

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Re: Spring Divides
« Reply #28 on: February 01, 2014, 03:11:04 pm »
They did not, and will not, swarm before the first 65 degree, sunny, calm day.
“Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me... Anything can happen, child. Anything can be.”
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Offline tecumseh

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Re: Spring Divides
« Reply #29 on: February 02, 2014, 06:55:03 am »
a crofter snip...
If you want to put a new queen in one half or both halfs wouldn't you want to find the old queen to keep new queen from being killed.

tecumseh...
well yea you might want to but there is nothing that says 'you have to'.   there are of course tricks that you can attempt* < I should add here as a matter of full disclosure that I generally always try to locate the queen and 'spotting the queen' is something I seem to have a a significant talent for but then again I have a large level of practice when it comes to this task.

*about the most simple trick anyone can try is an hour or so after splitting is to remove the lid from the split and set a mated queen in her introduction cage on the top bars at the center of the cluster with the screen wire pointed upwards.  if the hive is queenless then the bees will quickly cover the queen's introduction cage and begin feeding the queen thru the wire and almost always in goodly numbers (ie more than one or two but almost always looks like a mob to me).  if the unit is queen right the bees in the box will pay almost no attention to the queen in the introduction cage (maybe one or two may notice but not many and these will have almost no interest in feeding the queen in her introduction cage).  if the timing of split prior to adding the queen cage goes  much beyond 6 hours you also need to throughly check any split for queen cells < at least for me the most reliable reason why a mated queen is not accepted by a split is either a queen cell or a virgin queen < cells can be difficult to discover and virgin queens are several fold more difficult to locate than a mated queen.     

Offline tecumseh

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Re: Spring Divides
« Reply #30 on: February 02, 2014, 07:04:01 am »
of course there are those who might suggest that 'thinking outside the box' may represent some advantage here.  often time we are caught up in a decision of EITHER this or that, when if we did consider other options both might be possible.

not so long ago I did splits in the spring of the year because this is what bee keepers do.  then at some point I had a bit of conversation with Michael Palmer about late summer and fall split and realized fairly quickly.... why not have both? < I should point out here that IMHO the earliest queen you can obtain are also likely not the best queens.  often not considered in this question is the best type of queen are the ones that have been exposed to drones when drone numbers are the highest and when their nutrition is the very best <these two quality/quantity issues are quite unlike to take place early in the season.

Offline Slowmodem

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Re: Spring Divides
« Reply #31 on: February 02, 2014, 11:49:35 am »
at least for me the most reliable reason why a mated queen is not accepted by a split is either a queen cell or a virgin queen

So if I do a split and let it sit overnight, then go and put a queen that is in a queen introduction cage into the queenless box, and they've built a queen cell during the night, you think when they released the queen from her cage that they would kill her?
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Offline blueblood

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Re: Spring Divides
« Reply #32 on: February 02, 2014, 01:04:36 pm »
Is it completely irresponsible to split the hive 50/50 and not care where the queen ends up, one box or the other?  And, let the queenless hive generate their own queen?  I am seeing only one major drawback, losing nearly a month for the process.

Offline G3farms

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Re: Spring Divides
« Reply #33 on: February 02, 2014, 03:19:32 pm »
Dave that is called a walk away split. Don't much care for them either but for the most part they can be successful.

I have done splits like that but I do know where the queen ends up. I like to do one split and let them raise several queen cells, then harvest the cells for more splits.
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Offline blueblood

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Re: Spring Divides
« Reply #34 on: February 02, 2014, 05:36:28 pm »
That's a good idea G.  I might do that to just one hive so I can harvest some queens for further splits...

Offline riverbee

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Re: Spring Divides
« Reply #35 on: February 02, 2014, 06:18:20 pm »
"is it completely irresponsible to split the hive 50/50 and not care where the queen ends up, one box or the other?  And, let the queenless hive generate their own queen?  I am seeing only one major drawback, losing nearly a month for the process."

blue, like g said, this is a walk away split, and i am not a fan of them, the odds are against you that the colony will fail. a queen raised from a walkaway, if successful, you will be looking at about a 7 week delay, so anywhere between 49 and up to 60 days when the colony raises it's own queen. on the positive, varroa control because of the brood break, but costly in terms of colony buildup. to the raise a queen from viable larvae, emergence, maturation, mating (if successful) and egg laying, then 21 days for worker brood to emerge, and in the meantime your population will drop from this colony because no new bees are being born during this period of time.  this can and does affect what resources come in the front door and comb building, and don't expect a honey crop the first year.

i think it is a great educational experiment to try at some point, too many variables that contribute to failure. i have done them in the past. my rate of success at this seems to lean more towards the failure side.  not saying it doesn't work sometimes, but if it fails, then a beek is facing a different set of problems to remedy in the process; for example, if not 'managed properly', a diminished population of older bees, and possibly a requeening challenge.
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Offline Slowmodem

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Re: Spring Divides
« Reply #36 on: February 02, 2014, 07:31:18 pm »
i think it is a great educational experiment to try at some point, too many variables that contribute to failure. i have done them in the past. my rate of success at this seems to lean more towards the failure side.  not saying it doesn't work sometimes, but if it fails, then a beek is facing a different set of problems to remedy in the process; for example, if not 'managed properly', a diminished population of older bees, and possibly a requeening challenge.

I tried to do one once and it didn't take.   I ended up with a good bunch of wax moths, though.   :o
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Offline tecumseh

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Re: Spring Divides
« Reply #37 on: February 03, 2014, 06:42:25 am »
thanks slowmodem your experience is exactly why I would never recommend this to a novice bee keeper.   a couple of laps around the big oval to get the true feel of things and then the novice MAY be ready to try this procedure.

and yes I suspect in about 95% of the times when a queen is not accepted there is a queen cell, a queen or a virgin queen already in the box.


when thing really get going here and things are flying left and right and there is absolutely no time to get everything done it is also quite common for me to do splits (some times call totally destructive splits... in that a large hive is subdivided into many many parts) and if I do not find the queen I simply add a queen cell to each and every part without any notion of which part still has the queen.  a few days later when I check to see if the cells have hatched the one part with the old queen is quite obvious based on which cell has been chewed down.

Offline Woody Roberts

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Re: Spring Divides
« Reply #38 on: April 21, 2014, 06:26:10 pm »
Since I have considerable expierence in failed queen rearing attempts I though I would throw my 2 cents in here.
I started trying to make splits and let them raise a queen not long after I got my first bees. No mentor, just some books. When your first starting many of the things you read you think you understand but later realize you didn't.
Each time I lost a hive I tried to figure out what I did wrong. Instead of learning how to do it I learned how not to do it. I've developed some pretty strong opinions on the subject.

I believe this can't be completely taught, it has to be learned. I also believe its something every beekeeper needs to know.

Some of the things I've learned

To start with I never split from a hive that isn't strong.
You need lots of bees of the right age to build a good queen. If your building in a nuc 4 frames full of nurse bees is my minimum. 5 is better, 6 is better yet. Best is to let the hive build the new queen.

My best queens are born in July and Aug. Where I am the flow is over, the hives are boiling with bees. The 30 days I lose is of no consequence because there's no flow.
I only lose 30 days because unlike swarms the queen was laying right up until I pulled her. Only once have I not had eggs in 30 days. My Iddee queen took about 34 days.
If the queen doesn't make it back from her mating flights just combine the old one back in and try again in a month or so.
After you get the basics down you can get a couple mating nucs for those extra cells they made. Their kinda handy.

I suggest to every new beek that after the flow when your bees ain't doing anything productive anyway you start trying to Learn this. Expect lots of failures but you'll be a better beek at the end.
For me this is the most interesting part of beekeeping.
Good luck, and hang in there.

Offline LazyBkpr

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Re: Spring Divides
« Reply #39 on: April 21, 2014, 06:34:05 pm »
 :yah:
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