Plastic vs Wax Foundation - Black vs Yellow plastic foundation

[40 Acre Bees]

It is probably a topic that has been discussed a thousand times, but it is my time to ask.  As I mentioned before I am switching to foundation from foundation-less as the last two years have been a disaster.  Since I have a number of shallow boxes that i want to utilize I have two options.  Buy medium plastic foundation and cut it down, but then I am unsure should it be black or yellow in the honeys supers, or I can get wax foundation for my shallow frames for a bit more money.  I don't know which what way to go and was wondering what the bees like best.  Thanks......

[Perry]

Black foundation for brood, light coloured for honey. Once you have a round of brood raised in either it doesn't matter, both will be attractive to the queen.

[Zweefer]

Wax all the way!

[riverbee]

 

i have used wax foundation for the first part of my beekeeping years. (no such thing as plastic foundation) i switched to using waxed plastic (pierco) foundation. i use the black for deeps and the white for honey supers.  i still have a mix of both, but cycle out old brood frames (wax) and replace them with the waxed plastic.  most of my honey supers still contain a great deal of wax foundation, again as they age/or the queen laid up in them, i cycle them out and replace them with the pierco.

the advantage of using waxed plastic is you can scrape them off right down to the foundation, re-use and not be out a frame like wax foundation. 
this is a good thread, and many are one way or the other, pros and cons to both, and some may say bees will not draw foundation on plastic...
i think this is just another learning curve and management of plastic frames.

also, just a tip. if one purchases waxed plastic frames (don't purchase unwaxed) add more wax to the frame.  this is easily done by melting some wax down and rolling it across the foundation.

[Perry]

i have used wax foundation for the first part of my beekeeping years. (no such thing as plastic foundation.)

Perry - "Ooh, Ooh, lemme, lemme"
Be nice, don't do it!
Perry - "Aww, c'mon, it's right there, begging to be zung"
No, you have a reputation for being a nice guy who would never stoop to such a level.

Alas, with that, the world can only imagine what profound comment Perry was going to make before his conscience got the better of him.

[Wandering Man]

If Perry had a REAL conscience, it would be out in the snow shoveling all of his neighbors sidewalks.

[Chip Euliss]

I don't have a preference.  You can see eggs in the black frames a little easier for a few years but it's hard to tell them from yellow ones after that period of time.  I used to use unwaxed foundation and found that the bees would draw it out just as quick as waxed when they were on a hot flow so you had to be careful when (and where) you gave it to the bees.  I've been drawing 1.5-4,000 foundation frames each year for a long time and I can't remember when I last had unwaxed.  Seems like I wait till the last minute and waxed is all they have available in assembled frames.  I did get a bunch of 7 5/8 unwaxed all-plastic frames from Jim Paysen many years ago and I had to dip them in wax BUT it wasn't because the bees wouldn't draw comb on the plastic.  Seems the release agent they used to free the frames and foundation from the mold left a chemical residue the bees didn't like.  They got that fixed in other runs and the bees liked the others just fine.  I didn't enjoy dipping those frames and I usually don't scrape the old comb off and let the bees draw it a second time.  For me, it just takes too much time so I have the wax rendered from the entire frame/foundation/comb unit.  The machine they use, grinds everything up in a slurry that is then heated and the wax gets pressed out under pressure I think.

[riverbee]

"Alas, with that, the world can only imagine what profound comment Perry was going to make before his conscience got the better of him. "

waiting on the profound comment............   

like chip said, i do like the black frames because one can see eggs on it much better.

[Jacobs]

I like plastic foundation for honey--no cross wiring and I can crank the extractor as hard as I care to without comb blowouts.  I like wax foundation for brood areas/being able to cut out or play with queen cells, so I am having bees draw out more of the wax foundation.  My bees seem to draw the wax foundation quicker, but in a good flow, both get drawn.  In the past, Brushy Mountain instructions said not to mix the undrawn plastic and wax in a super--use only 1 type of undrawn in a given super if the whole super is undrawn.  My guess is that will prevent the bees from favoring the wax and drawing it first or thicker before drawing the plastic.

I know that my neighbor is able to buy plastic foundation for shallow frames from some of the suppliers.  I don't know if they cut down mediums or are now getting shallow plastic foundation made.  If you check around, you should be able to purchase it.

[LazyBkpr]

heh...  I am wondering if imagination is as good as what Perry was going to say?


   Okay... I have a little of everything...   Foundation-less, wax, and plastic, black, yellow and even green because I tried some small cell foundation.....

   Over the years.. it has ALL become a jumbled mess. i have few hives that do not have some of each in them....

   I like foundation-less because I can easily punch cells to make queens from, and it also allows the bees to build whatever they wish.
   I like wax foundation only because the bees tend to take to it better than the plastic.
   I like the plastic because it is easier for "ME" to install, easier to extract honey from, and it can be cleaned up and re used.

   I have in the past installed an empty foundation-less frame, a frame with wax foundation, and a frame with plastic foundation side by side in the brood chamber in a new hive.
   in all but one of the hives, the bees immediately started the foundation-less frame, then the wax frame, and only when forced started to fill the plastic frame...
   However, when they are given ONLY plastic frames, they seemed to get straight to work..

   Black plastic makes seeing eggs very easy, yellow plastic makes seeing eggs much more difficult, and white plastic makes seeing them impossible. I don't know if any company sells white plastic foundation anymore? I still have some, but quickly moved away from it.
   Yellow or Black.. the bees do not seem to have much of a preference.  I buy large quantities of black foundation now and don't worry about the rest. BUT, I do advise you to try whatever YOU like, and see how it works!
   To be perfectly honest, I used so much foundation-less because I am SO CHEAP I did not want to spend the money on foundation..  with up to 20 hives I managed it just fine, however, as I get bigger... (The APIARY NOT ME) I tend to appreciate the plastic. I have spent SO MANY hours cross wiring frames and setting the wires in the wax for deeps that it no longer has any romanticism left.

    Of all the good advice I can think to give another beekeeper? It would be.. DO NOT decide to pop a top and check a hive real quick wearing shorts! If you MUST, then make sure your wife is not watching!

   Sage advice right there!

[Perry]

Reading LazyBkpr's post, something stood out for me
"I like the plastic because it is easier for "ME" to install, easier to extract honey from, and it can be cleaned up and re used."

Once you start to reach a certain number of hives, what becomes easiest for you becomes incredibly important. It does NOT mean you don't care about your bees. I find that when things become easier, you are more likely to do them and keep on top of them. No scrambling, no hasty and sometimes poor decision making, etc.

Examples I've found:

# 1 - the farther you have to travel to a yard, the less attention it will get. I've found this to be absolutely true, even though it shouldn't. Closer yards are easier to check on more frequently.
# 2 - Extracting becomes a pain in the tucas after the first box of frames. After a couple of days it can become a drag. If you have the right equipment though, it's not all that bad because it's easier.
# 3 - Plastic foundation is probably the least desirous to the bees, but they will draw it under the right conditions. I remember tecumseh once saying that under the right conditions bees would probably draw comb on cardboard! If we can take that into account and use the time saved wiring,etc to be used doing more pressing stuff, why not? Easy doesn't always mean bad.

[vvand111]

That is interesting Perry.
One and only one of the aspects of me getting into bee keeping was a swarm rested into my old very small shed and had one hades of a hive inside a cardboard box.  My garden did so well that year that between seeing that and the memories of all our farms in eastern NC having hives when I was a young boy pushed me.

[sc-bee]

i have used wax foundation for the first part of my beekeeping years. (no such thing as plastic foundation) i switched to using

?

[riverbee]

sc-bee i am unsure of your question?

when i first started keeping bees, there was no plastic foundation.

also, this is a good thread for discussion on those looking for answers as to what they might choose to use for foundation, and for those of us that use plastic foundation of one type or another might help another out

[sc-bee]

sc-bee i am unsure of your question?

And I did not understand your comment? But now I do as you cleared it up... Plastic did not exist when you started...I am sure it was just me....

[LazyBkpr]

Reading LazyBkpr's post, something stood out for me
"I like the plastic because it is easier for "ME" to install, easier to extract honey from, and it can be cleaned up and re used."

Once you start to reach a certain number of hives, what becomes easiest for you becomes incredibly important. It does NOT mean you don't care about your bees. I find that when things become easier, you are more likely to do them and keep on top of them. No scrambling, no hasty and sometimes poor decision making, etc.

Examples I've found:

# 1 - the farther you have to travel to a yard, the less attention it will get. I've found this to be absolutely true, even though it shouldn't. Closer yards are easier to check on more frequently.
# 2 - Extracting becomes a pain in the tucas after the first box of frames. After a couple of days it can become a drag. If you have the right equipment though, it's not all that bad because it's easier.
# 3 - Plastic foundation is probably the least desirous to the bees, but they will draw it under the right conditions. I remember tecumseh once saying that under the right conditions bees would probably draw comb on cardboard! If we can take that into account and use the time saved wiring,etc to be used doing more pressing stuff, why not? Easy doesn't always mean bad.

   Well said Perry!

   As Mrs. River also said.. when I first started helping a beekeeper, there was no plastic foundation. I spent HOURS installing wax and setting wires using an older train track controller to heat the wires..  THAT, was a serious drag!